AIBU to ask Wtf Is 'Child Led'?

[JustDanceAddict]

Seeing this a lot lately - what does it actually entail.
If my DCs didn't want to get up for school cos they're tired, is it child-led to keep them off school?
Mine know unless they are illthey are going in, as I have to go to work when tired, etc.

I will listen to my kids' reasons to do x,y or z but if I don't agree they will not be doing it.

I have let DD (15) off a couple of optional things and have regretted it as in the end it wasn't right in the circumstances that she didn't attend.

Surely it's all about compromise, but some things: school, family events, etc. are non-negotiable (barring mental health issues around school before I get flamed).

However, there is [currently] funding for Pre-16s going to college at 14yo
Some local colleges will only offer this facility now, apparently, if child attends full time. Understandably this this doesn't appeal to most home educators.

It may interest you to know that home education is illegal here in Sweden. The country as a whole is VERY child led. Children's rights are a big thing here. Physical punishment is (quite rightly) illegal and the general ethos of child rearing is very outdoorsy, chilled, child led and low pressure. School starts at seven, until then they are basically out playing.
Everything is couched from a best for the child perspective

But home ed is illegal. It's seen as being against the right of the child to education, against their right to socialise at dagis and too open to abuse for various religious/sect groups.

I'm not really putting any judgement on this - I think home ed CAN be a positive thing but I don't think it's easy to do well and I also think that while here are parents doing fantastic work the risk of it being used as indoctrination is too great.

So yes, the most child led country in the world also bans home education. I find that interesting

Some local colleges will only offer this facility now, apparently, if child attends full time.

Really? Thankfully that's not the case in my local college. and hopefully it still won't be when my kids are that age

Anatidae

And arguably, many parents may not choose to HE, if their children were able to get a child-led education in a school.

[I've no idea if that is true or not, but seems plausible. It would be interesting to know how many people in Sweden want to HE, but can't? I know a fair few people from Germany, where it is also illegal to HE, choose to emigrate in order to home educate.]

My child led children have done pretty well in private schools. I haven't felt them pushed into things they don't want to do particularly. They have the confidence of children who have treated well at home and that then carries over into the school environment. I support the UK retaining the right to home education however. Even our Queen was educated at home. It can work well for some.

And arguably, many parents may not choose to HE, if their children were able to get a child-led education in a school.

Yes I think that's a factor. The schooling fits the national psyche if you see what I mean? Swedes also have faith in their system to a degree the brits would find quite odd (it's something I struggle with.)

Also interesting: the general view of the school system has worsened in the last few years and is now seen as being overly permissive - so I think there's a balance. You need respect for the child and that certainly happens here, and at the same time that freedom needs to be within age appropriate structures and boundaries

The French have a similar philosophy I think, lots of freedom within the defined bounds of the 'cadre.' Its a good system there too.

I think things like attachment parenting and child led parenting have some very sound principles at their cores. It's when people take it to extremes, label it a parenting style, get a blog and present themselves as Doing It The Only True Way that you get a problem. Like a lot of things really.

My overall impression of Sweden (based on what I've heard from people who've spent time in the country) is that the country seems to have taken child-led-ness to a fault. I have to say that I'd be fantastically resentful of a country which had such a weak educational system and yet forced melegallyto take part in it.

What about foreign residents whose children do not have Swedish nationality? Surely they have the right to homeschool if they relocate to Sweden for a few years.

Surely they have the right to homeschool if they relocate to Sweden for a few years

No, they have to go to school if they are of school age. Such parents tend to use the international schools, which are much less child led and seen as a more rigorous academic environment. If you're moving a seven year old back to England to school they will be needing to be able to read... they will only just be doing that here (which I think is awful, personally. I'd. Even reading since 2 and books were a huge part of my life, kind of sad to deprive kids of that..)

You could indeed be fantastically resentful but thems the rules, and you're welcome to relocate somewhere that allows it. Or send your child to an international school. Which are far less child led but frankly probably better.
There are sort of private schools here but not really - all are open to all and all are via the same bloody queue system (mutter mutter, been in the queue almost two years for a sodding preschool that doesn't need us to drive all over town. Not even a specific one, just 'one near us please.' )

The idea is that all children have equality of opportunity - all children get free food t school. The royal kids go to a preschool in Sweden that ordinary kids go to. Equality is a big, big thing here.

It's a conformist society here - I think that's the price you pay in some ways for the mix of equality, high taxation, big state, homogenous population and frequently hideous climate.

drspouse The counter example is that girls schools have a far higher uptake for physics than mixed schools. So clearly the school environment is a huge influence. Similarly the IOP recently did some work in tackling stereotyping in schools and managed to up the rate of physics uptake by girls substantially.

They recorded classes and showed the teachers the play back indicating all the times they were biased, sexist, or simply gave more attention to the boys in the class. They taught the students and the teachers about microagressions, about everyday sexism and how to recognise and challenge it.

Can you believe that secondary school teachers aren't trained in this already? Can you believe they weren't aware of basic things like unconscious bias?

Some schools may be excellent on this front (apparently including single sex schools) but the majority are adding to the problems from parents and society not reducing them.

HE is indeed very expensive and a lot of people would do it if they could afford it but can't. The only certain expense is having to give up an income - but that is a major expense indeed!

I've never understood the antipathy of schoolers for HE. We are taking kids (and often kids with complex issues) out of the classroom to make more room for your children....why would you be against that?

It's just one more wanky term that allows a certain type of parent to feel superior to others. You can see them on the thread here "ooh I listen to and respect my children and they are so much more wonderful than yours!"
When in reality most of us do much the same thing while also having a bit of authority, but we don't need to label it and witter on about how amazing we are for doing it that way.

Even our Queen was educated at home. It can work well for some

Yes, very badly. Educated to be Queen, but not in anything useful, like maths, science or anything.

I've never understood the antipathy of schoolers for HE
While some home ed is for children whose parents would happily use schools and have tried them, but whose SEN means at least a break is necessary, others either come across as faddy at best or somewhere in the region of neglectful in others (I happen to have a close relative in the latter category), and a substantial majority are very holier than thou.
I do also know some very nice home edders with their heads screwed on who are not self righteous. One or two have slightly odd reasons for home ed (e.g. wanting to take term time holidays).

Also - "schoolers"? Sorry but I think you mean "almost everyone" and it's never polite to use a term for people they haven't created themselves.

I've never understood the antipathy of schoolers for HE

The turn of phrase there. 'Schoolers'. That's interesting. Coining a slightly derivative term for a group you wish to feel superior to. One might say 'breeders' with a faint air of disgust for those with children? Or 'useless eaters' perhaps for the disabled?

Oh, be very very wary of a movement which does that. The vast majority of parent who send their kids to school are not a homogeneous mass of unenlightened sheep, and home educators are not the plucky little strivers battling the big system. Classic technique: divide, isolate, inculcate an air of both oppression and membership of some kind of superior cadré. Fabbo. Totally independent thought there chaps!

I think most 'schoolers' (yuck) think of HE as something that's probably needing a great deal of time and resource to get right, and that they may not have the time, money, resources or ability to do as well as professional educators. As something that probably works quite well in some circumstances but also as something that can be used to control and innoculate little minds with various ideologies, not all of which are pleasant.

Schoolers. I feel dirty just reading it.

Home educators are a pretty diverse bunch actually, with many divisions and factions and styles of education and approach. It's not a good idea to label either (home educated or those in the school system) as a group.

That was just a general comment. Not directed at any one person

The queen would have received a good grounding in maths and science, amongst other subjects, wouldn't she?

What's the German school system like generally? I can only think of Steiner, which is very child led, obviously.

Steiner schools....

Not the fluffy creative child led Heaven they pretend to be. Actually a really weird quasi religious concept behind it (some charming racism as well) and very prescriptive in their methods and timings. Would not send my kids to one.homeopathy, gnomes, anti Semitic and aryan supremacist

www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/what-every-parent-should-know-about-steiner-waldorf-schools.html

German school system pretty good. They have nailed the idea of a really good quality technical path for kids who don't want to go the academic route. So they have good quality sort of apprentice routes. And lo and behold a functioning manufacturing industry.

Academia is still a little static at the top - very much a job for life in the ivory towers and you're waiting to fill dead men's shoes in the research world.

I'd be very interested to see what kind of choosing the queen received. I'd imagine very good. And home education CAN be good. I don't think it's easy to do - I would t feel up to it, and I say that as. (Hopefully) intelligent person with four degrees. Teaching is a skill. I taught when I worked at a university and it's not easy to do even when you are an expert in what you're teaching. To try to give a child a broad swathe of knowledge is very difficult indeed.

Also, don't we all educate at home anyway? They don't formally teach them to read here until 7, but kiddo (just shy of 2) is looking at letters and sounding them out. At first he was just imitating us but now he knows ten or so. No pressure from us - we read a lot and he's interested. Similarly a house full of books and engaged parents = kids learning a lot.
But I'd certainly not be confident of being able to bring my kids up to high school level in diverse subjects.

I'm in Finland where home schooling is allowed but very rare and parents have to follow the national curriculum (but the national curriculum is very loose, just has some basic concepts that children are expected to learn but how they learn them is up to the teachers and therefore also up to any HE parents) but its not surprise its rare as people have a lot of trust in the school system so are happy for their children to just attend the local school. Interestingly, in regards to the gender bias thing, girls actually do better than boys at maths and science here, well at everything, in the comprehensive school stage, and gender equality is a big thing. Education is very child-led here in the early years (up to 7) but after that its quite old fashioned (except in some schools in the capital area that a bit more experimental) with timetables from the 1st grade but short days at least and lots of playtime/breaktime throughout.

I was quite child-led when DD was younger, especially in regards to bedtime as she was born a night owl and trying to get her to bed at a time I set just didn't work (now she's older and has to get up in the mornings I've only been able to get her to bed at a reasonable time with the help of melatonin) but I had to stop being too child-led as she developed quite bad behaviour issues which stricter (few, but strict) rules have really helped with. Not saying child-led led to the problems, there were a lot of causes, very complicated, but child-led just wasn't the way to go after that.

Isn't Finland widely regarded as one of the best school systems in the world? Early years play led then quality more structured seems a good mix to me.

Better than the Swedish one anyway, sigh.

Schoolers just sounds like those who use a school, just like home educators just sounds like those who educate at home. I have never heard it used, but would assume that it is merely a shorthand way of saying the above.

Was, hasn't been so great lately (though its more that other systems have caught up but also some lowering of usual test scores which is concerning) but its still a bloody good system and I'm glad DD gets to go to school here. She starts preschool next month, I'm really excited but she's rather anxious bless her, mostly because most of her friends are going to the other preschool and not the one she's going to.

The queen would have received a good grounding in maths and science, amongst other subjects, wouldn't she?

Not in the slightest. She was home schooled by a governess and learnt little more than French and Constitutional Monarchy in depth.

I know all about Steiner, just not the German school system generally.

Would not send my kids to one.homeopathy, gnomes, anti Semitic and aryan supremacist

That really isn't the case. I know a few Steiner/Waldorf educators (school and home ed.) and I find that quite offensive. What are you basing that on, exactly?

I've never understood the antipathy of schoolers for HE

I've never understood why people with no or few relevant qualifications think they are the best people to teach their own children, personally. I know one person who home educates who failed gcse level maths and can't spell any word over 5 letters long.