To wonder why on Mumsnet there is a smacking minority and in NZ 85% of people seem to want to do it?

[twentypence]

Lies, damn lies and statistics I know. But apparently NZ's new "anti smacking" law is opposed by 85% of New Zealanders.

Now I haven't looked into the proposed law carefully at all - partly because to actually find a fact amongst all the political posturing and soundbites largely because as I don't smack and never will it doesn't matter to me personally whether it becomes illegal or not.

But 85% just seems so high...

if you are interested, here are some views collected from real children about what it feels like to be smacked

MerryMarigold - smacking is hitting, sorry but to try and pretend otherwise is just delusional.

UCM - ime and imo that people who are most vehemently "anti-smacking" on here and in RL are not bragging about how perfect their parenting is; they are speaking from their own childhood experiences. They are speaking not from smugness but from pain. I think it's important to bear that in mind.

Merrymarigold - you can join the merry gang of those who have been categorised as child abusers as they have very occasionally chosen to smack in a certain defined circumstances - like me.

However, the same people who define this as child abuse will not accept the argument (that you have also used) that some other ways of treating children are worse - for example, being told that mummy doesn't love you, or simply living in a negative environemnt, or that being sent out of the room causes even more distress. They will, argue that two wrongs don't make a right (which in principle I agree with - but you have to accept that there is a "wrong" in the first place) and that such actions are also child abuse.

In which case, just about every parent here is guilty of child abuse - as we will all have done things at some point that distress our children.

I have a friend who is a social worker who works with survivors of child abuse. She would just laugh at the definition of child abuse that some people, eg Greenshoots, use.

Interesting that Save the Children and the NSPCC wouldn't agree with your friend though, prettybird. But then there are some very blase social workers around.

I have also worked with survivors of horrendous abuse. And I'm not laughing.

hello all, just checking on active convos, couldnt believe that this discussion is still going on!! will read thread then probably will post again, with my two penny worth!!!

If you met her, you would not accuse her of being blase, Greensleeves. She is a very forthright lady - and she and her team do a lot of great work.

And I would be be extremely surprised if the maximum of 5 taps on the back of the hand - done, by your definition, in cold blood, by mine, not in anger - which ds cannot even remember - would, even in Save the Children and the NSPCC's eyes, categorise me as a child abuser. I'd be happy to be a test case though - but I actually think it would damage the case against violence towards children as it wold be laughed out of court, and give real abusers, the beaters, the slappers, the ones who really hurt and bruise, the impression that what they do is acceptable.

I am more likley to be accused by my ds of child abuse becasue we have taken his tamagotchis away for a while as a withdrawal of a priviledge. That is what distresses him now!

This thread is great. You are all having a lovely time verbally bashing other parents and inducing guilt and excersizing your debating skills. Great.

But its so useless. What on earth is the point of scapegoating good parents who make mistakes? Or whose parenting style you don't agree with? Even if some of you do think of a smack as abuse (and you are perfectly entitled to that opinion - I do realise you feel strongly about this and are trying to do the right thing) - even so, do you really think it would be better for the mums on here to be in jail, or fined a huge fine? Would that be better for their children?

If you really want to help, start a thread called "Non-smacking parenting for really challenging kids and incredibly hard situations". Some of have PDN (I do). Some of us have very challenging, iron willed kids (I do), spme of us live millions of miles from our family and friends (I do), some of us are single parents, or have parteners who are away a lot. Some of us have other emotional or health problems.

I know this isn't meant tp be personal, but you need to think about the effect of what you are saying on other people. Other mums, who love their chidren and desperatley want whats best for them. As for me, I am sitting here sobbing. Thinking about how much I love my kids, how hard I am working to overcome my difficulties, how much I try to be patient and how I have and will continue to try every non-smacking parenting technique under the sun to help my DC, and to help myself to cope. I have smacked my kids. I agree that the times I have smacked them its (almost always) been the wrong thing to do, and I have done it out of anger. I'm not a child abuser though. My kids shouldn't be taken away from me. I'm not a "big bully", a "poor parent" or a failure. I'm just fallible. I'm so upset by this, and so angry.

If Xenia comes on and tells me I am unfit and should get a job and hire a nanny I will scream. I will raise my children myself.

ok here it is......... i am shocked beyond believe that after the other thread greeny you are still being so ruthless in your treatment of people with different opinions than yours.And still standing by your conviction that to hit, smack or whatever in anger is ok, if you regret it afterwards, but us who occasionally have smacked for a variety of reasons( in my case to ensure the safety of my dd) are abusing our children. are you honestly unable or unwilling to see the bigger picture???? do not tar us all with the same brush.fwiw, i was smacked alot as a child, whilst im not excusing my fathers behaviour, it was his verbal put downs that have stayed with me, and they caused the most distress to me .

Catastrohe I agree with you 100%. I tried to express this opinion on another thread but it didn't come out as eliquently as you have put it.

LOL at "ruthless". I disagree with you, that's all. As do all the major children's charities in this country, and quite a lot of other MNers. Is it really so surprising that I haven't changed my opinion as a result of your "arguments"?

I certainly didn't say that to smack a child in anger was OK as long as you regret it. I said it was awful, and an assault. However I did say that I found that more understandable and less abusive than the calm considered smacking some have described and defended.

And CATastrophe, I'm genuinely sorry you are upset and crying. I was in a similar state myself yesterday. However, I must say that I don't think it changes anything in terms of this debate. I still think smacking children is wrong. And I don't think being depressed is a reason (I suffer from chronic depression too). And I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly not here to polish my debating skills. On the contrary I have found this whole debate incredibly stressful and upsetting and exhausting. But I feel very very strongly about the issue, so I am still here. I think it's interesting that because my view differs from yours, you assume that it's not a strongly held view and that I am just here for the sake of winning.

and i you greeny, however at least i am capable of opening my mind and not stereotyping people,something i think you have a major issue with imo

No Greeny, I can see that you feel strongly that you are doing and saying the right thing, and respect your tanacity.

Also, my list is not a list of 'excuses', but rather of reasons that people might not be acting in a way that you, or they, think is ideal.

catASTROPHE I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

me to cat. take it easy ok x

Interesting thread. I'm in the minority of people who would support a smacking ban. I do believe it would have the consequence of fewer parents smacking and fewer children being hurt. I like to think it would have the consequence of more parents finding better ways to parent their children. I'm not sure it would have the consequence of fewer children being very cruelly abused and sadistically abused but it could help to identify those parents who lose it on a frequent basis and need some intervention and help.

First time parents are in the position to go either way with smacking. They may be faced with a tanrtuming toddler or 3 year old and not know what to do. They come to a site like Mumsnet and receive the general message that an occaisonal smack is not wrong. At some point their child drives them to that point of frustration that we've all reached and they smack their child, because the message they have received is that an occasional smack is OK.

If there was a law that said smacking is NOT OK, I don't think that parent would have smacked their child.

I have imposed my own smacking ban. In my head it is the ultimate taboo and I don't allow myself or anyone to smack my children. I fear that if I smack once, I will smack again, and again, and again and all that would be achieved would be a momentary release of my anger, followed, of course, by a huge amount of guilt.

So, I find it very hard to undersdtand why people write that THEY don't smack but don't want to ban it. I don't steal but I would like it to remain a criminal offence.

I could accept the position that in some households a smack doesn't harm the child if there were at least some evidence to show that smacking works or helps. But there isn't any. So why do it?

Are we really to believe that parents have so little control over their feelings that they cannot repress the urge to hit their child? Am I the only one who manages to repress that urge? Because there are plenty of times I could have lost it and could picture the act in my head but I never follow through. At times my DH invokes the same kind of anger and I probably invoke a similar amount of anger in him, but we manage not to lash out at each other.

Whenever has it been a reasonable excuse to hit another person because you have 'lost it'.

I don't think this thread or similar ones have come to the conclusion that smacking is ok.

Have just read the link that harpsi posted.

Its very disturbing that some of the children think that you have to be smacked if you have done something wrong. Also some of the ways they describe being smacked. A five year old girl describing being hit in the tummy and then having a tummy ache and being hit again!
It was difficult to keep reading it because you just dont want to belive that people can be that cruel to their children.

I just cannot see any argument that puts any form of smacking in a positive light.

And not one of those children said that they learned anything from it, apart from anger and humiliation.

Ekra, i completely agree with you

powder 28, noone is trying to argue a case for smacking, of course it is wrong, we just object to the holier than thou approach by certain people, who by doing so instill fear, guilt and inferiority complexes into others,who for what ever reason have on occasion smacked.they enforce their opinion without looking at the bigger picture.Not all of us are calculating, thick uneducated evil abusers.

I don't know Matildax.....

I don't smack my DDs. I have been known to regretably shout at the older one. I always regret it because I recognise it usually occurs in a week when I am more stressed out or have PMS and that at other times I would have handled the situation differently.

My guilt over shouting is self-imposed. I wouldn't object to a thread which pondered the wrongs and rights of shouting and concluded that shouting is wrong. I am constantly trying to alter my behaviour so that I shout less or not at all and would not see a need to have my shouting episodes verified by someone who manages not to ever shout at their children.

I think I meant to type justified and not verified

If people arent trying to argue a case for smacking then this thread would have died out long ago. Or am i Wrong?

ok fair enough, and for the record i see your point ekra, however a touch of compassion wouldnt have gone a miss is all im saying.

harpsichordcarrier, thank you for that link.

I am another who finds it indefensible to smack or hit anyone, be they children or adults and I don't care how 'smug' that makes me sound.

I especially despise the justification of using smacking because it is 'over with quickly'. Helping children to learn appropriate behaviour is, IMO, a long and varied task but surely it's important to be calm and to show our children how to react in a reasonable way rather than to hit out. Call it what you like - smacking, tapping, hitting - you have no right to do it to another human being.

podwer has anyone actually said "I'm all for smacking"? A few people have admitted to regretably smacking thier DCs occassionally and in the past. They have been incorrectly labled pro-smacking but that simply isn't the case.

Some people have said they use smacking as part of a controlled form of discipline. That sounds like being pro-smacking to me.
Anyway, I dont want to get drawn into big debate about this cos its pointless.