Charlie Gard 7

[CaveMum]

Continuation of the discussion.

It looks highly unlikely that there will be a verdict today as GOSH have not yet been able to put their case across. The Gard family had their position heard this morning and currently an expert witness from the US is being questioned via video link.

It worries me immensely that the parents seem intent on keeping Charlie no matter what kind of life he would lead if he were to be kept alive. It doesn't sound like he would lead any decent quality of life, even if the treatment did work. I have seen some videos of parents whose children who have had this treatment and, I'm sorry to say, that it doesn't seem to me that they have any real quality of life. There were a couple on this morning talking about their son whose condition was similar to Charlie's and had had this treatment. The father started crying when he talked about how his son's eyes moved for the first time. This is despite the fact that his son is kept in a bedroom that is similar to an intensive care unit and cannot move or speak and is severely brain damaged. I cannot imagine what that poor little boy is going through just for the sake of being kept alive.

But surely before offering the trial to c and c he should have known all the facts about Charlie's brain function and medical conditions. Especially after all the media coverage and court cases.

I got the impression the American Dr was more of a research lead, as opposed to a clinical/medical Dr, hence him being unable to answer some questions. And in fairness, how could he make a definitive comment without having seen scans/EEG's etc.

I didn't feel that I heard enough about potential side-effects of the treatment. Yes, I appreciate it's untested, but surely that should be important in the decision-making.

And I would like to have seen Charlie's guardian voice concerns about him being a guinea pig.

I'm not disappointed in the Judge. I think he is a latter-day Solomon. Whatever decision he comes to will be the right one I think.

At the very end of his previous Judgement he said this

I end with this procedural note: I have already expressed the opinion that I believe that it would, in all cases like this, be helpful for there to be some form of Issues Resolution Hearing or other form of mediation where the parties can have confidential conversations to see what common ground can be reached between them. I believe that that type of hearing, be it Judge led or some other form of private mediation, would have led to a greater understanding between the parents and the clinical team in this case. I am not saying that it would necessarily have led to a resolution, but I think in many such cases it would and I would like to think that in future cases like this such attempts can be made.

I think he's absolutely right.

thy did mention to him so charlie would be the first with his condition to experiment with this treatmnt and he said yes

I highly doubt that the expert made public comments about Charlie before being contacted. Apparently Connie found him while looking for treatments/cures on the internet, probably stumbling on other research he had done in the area.

It would be very unprofessional of a researcher to publicly comment on cases he was not involved in, plus I doubt anyone in the US had heard of Charlie's case until this spring.

Maybe I have missed it but where are the grandparents or other relatives in this. I only see c and c. I am sorry to sound negative but I think they are putting themselves through more torture i don't think anything can be done to significantly improve Charlie's quality of life and Imagine how they would feel if he passed away while they were battling in court

I am disappointed in the Judge. He was the first Judge to hear this case and I think that he should definitely have asked for the American Doctor who was offering the treatment, to come to the UK to examine Charlie. It makes no sense to me that this wasn't a priority, considering how much was riding on this doctor's opinion.

I felt after Monday that the judge wanted it to get decided and not get dragged on.

After today I feel less certain of that.

And it does feel more likely than it did that Charlie may end up being experimented on

Really disappointed. This is just beyond insanity at this point..it's just going to keep being adjourned and put off til next week after week after week. I feel like charlie is going to succumb to his disease before ANY decision is upheld and I pray to god it isn't painful or drawn out much further. I don't understand, because the judge refused to have the case drawn out til late July and seemed very concerned that charlie might still be suffering. Was there some argument put forward we were not made aware of?? Doesn't seem anything even marginally convincing was put forth, why is the judge prolonging this?
I wouldn't call the American doctor a quack but I'm disturbed by his willingness to experiment on charlie and flippancy about the probability he can feel pain. Charlie is very vulnerable ,being not only a baby unable to volunteer but also unable to cry or communicate pain in any way and it's such a horrible thought. I can assure y'all that not all American doctors are like that, it really disturbed me.

I have gone through the family court process myself, albeit an entirely different matter, but I was extremely disappointed in how the judges handled my case, prolonging things when completely unnecessary. In Charlie's case, it seems to me that the Judge today, as intellectual as he may be and as knowledgeable as the law he may be; he seems to be very lacking in basic common sense and also seems to be very out of touch with reality. It seems so clear to me that at the first court hearing, he should have asked for this american doctor to come to the UK to examine Charlie and then give his expert opinion on whether or not he thought his treatment would work. Had this been the case, then this could have all been resolved by now. This is a shambles and poor little Charlie is being kept alive and most likely suffering whilst all this continues.

Also, it concerned me some of the things the doctor said, like he wanted someone more experienced to examine him and comment on his scans, even if he is not a neurologist I would have thought, well, I would have thought he would have been a bit more expereinced than that. And it concerns me that it is not Charlie's specific type of mito he has worked with, nor did he particularly seem to have any confidence it could help him particularly.

Ok, so if it was a revolutionary treatment, which might make a big difference than that would be very different. But how much of this is actually about putting off the inevitable.

or even with someone who had had good outcomes with the same illness.

Maybe that was because at the time, this doc seemed to accept the extent of brain damage and that it would be a very small chance of helping. he seemed to accept at that stage from GOSH the extent of the damage.

Is this definitely the same doctor who withdrew the offer of treatment earlier in the year?

My understanding is that the judge will only reconsider matters if there is new evidence that wasn't available in April when he first ruled on the matter. I also understand that there were volumes of papers handed to him during the hearing today.

As such, I wonder if the meeting tomorrow is to enable all of the parties to focus down on how much, if any, of that paperwork and the evidence heard in court today is actually new and therefore narrow down what, if anything, he is being asked to reconsider. This might actually speed things up for Charlie rather than bogging the court process down in dispute.

Yes, I was told today on here it is the same one. It doesn't give confidence does it, that he withdrew earlier.

I also wonder if, having heard that there really is no new evidence, the judge will indicate to all parties that he will not be overturning the original ruling prior to this meeting tomorrow?

And there may just be the smallest of chances that the parents will have to accept the inevitable and it may well be over tomorrow?

I still stick with the fact that the judge is covering all bases so whatever the decision ( I think it will be to switch off life support) there will be no possibility of any more appeals or returns to court with new evidence. It is clear IMO that the judge is not at all convinced with going for experimentation. But, he really does have to be thorough and make sure he has covered every possibility as regards new treatment. When he is clear in his mind there is nothing much new, or it is not supported with enough evidence to conclude it is advantageous to little Charlie then he will make what will be the final judgement. He is very much aware that this circus has to end here now one way or the other. Also I think he may be hoping it will prompt the parents to see it is really futile to carry on. The new treatment is in its infancy, untested and untried but too late for Charlie.. In 3 years it may be ready but Charlie does not have that amount of time I'm afraid.
His suffering cannot go on, and nor can his parents. There will be no peace for any of the family until Charlie passes. It is so so tragic and unbearable for all concerned.

my opinion, and it is only that - is that the Judge is very aware of how things are, and the real issue is the way the relationship between GOSH and the parents has fallen apart so badly. I think he would like there to be some mediation. So that there can be a way for the family to be able to spend Charlie's last days with his parents, without any feelings of hostility, towards staff who have very clearly been looking after him in a very dedicated way.

I agree with all you say Sostenueto.

It was going to be the case of the parents going for judicial review, and then GOSH took it back to court for this, as far as I know. I think, it was to try and avoid all that and finalise things once and for all, now, rather than later. Especially with the parents feeling other avenues had not been explored fully.

Yes, and it is a shame the mediation couldn't have happened from the start.

@Sostenueto

I agree with you.

I think he wants to leave no possibility of a furthering trial after this - whatever the decision.

In terms of the meeting as a pp said it makes sense for both sides to "agree" the points of contention, rather than study every aspect of the case in detail.

What may come out of that process is an awareness of how week the parents case is. For example if they can't find an expert to support their claim that Charlie is definitely not in pain and does not have brain damage then issues about the effectiveness of the treatment (or not) become moot.

However, if they can produce that evidence

Oops press post by accident....

If they can produce that evidence then discussing the treatment obviously becomes a more valid discussion.

What the hell is it with Ca???? (Well I'm up for kidnapping Charlie so his parents can get him out of this Country x)

( Why picture her smoking . I can't imagine the stress don't get why a pic of them both smoking is the main pic)

( Cause it's daily scum paper. I think of all the ppl they deserve a cigarette after what this country is putting them through)

( Daily mail has supported Charlie loads x)

And oh my word!!!!!! (The judge could do with a bit of compassion..)

( Tut tut daily mail tricks like this is why people dont buy your papers your as bad gosh and the goverment bullying bastards 😡)

Charlies army, equals not taking responsibility for nothing,everything is everyone elses fault. Now they are slagging off the Daily Fail, and Msm whatever that is.