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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Charlie Gard 6

999 replies

CaveMum · 13/07/2017 10:10

New thread so that we can await this morning's hearing.

Let's try to keep this one as sensible and measured as the past 5 threads have been.

Fingers crossed that this can all be resolved today and that Charlie and his parents can find peace.

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8
DarthMaiden · 13/07/2017 16:03

"A number above zero"

Wow - just wow

Albadross · 13/07/2017 16:03

I know a parent who has essentially lived at GOSH for 12 years since her son was born at 22 weeks. He's not got brain damage but his organs fail a few times a week and he's constantly in pain and will never leave the hospital. She openly said that not only does he have no quality of life, but that she cannot work, never goes home and her older daughter has had to look after herself the entire time. It was painful to see how hopeless she was. Being simply able to breathe without a ventilator does not mean a life worth living and some people with brain damage are able to go out and live - it's all about the specific effects on that person, which will be different for everyone. How on earth the witness can make any judgement call on that without the vital detail is beyond me.

GabsAlot · 13/07/2017 16:04

mor delay

dont agree at all about somon who cant practis coming heere to asseess him

Writerwannabe83 · 13/07/2017 16:04

Witness is asked if he treated Charlie what his expectation of improved cognitive function would be. Not much but some he says.

And that's the best they can do to get the Judge on their side?

"Not much but some"

How very, very depressing.

Surely the Judge won't allow experimentation to go ahead on such a response?

NerrSnerr · 13/07/2017 16:04

Judge: would you be prepared to come to London and examine Charlie if I adjourned the case? Answer: Yes.

How long can this go on for? Poor Charlie.

flatbreads · 13/07/2017 16:04

Albadross that's so sad.

Can't believe Judge has asked if Dr would come to London to examine Charlie

Maybeoneday77 · 13/07/2017 16:04

On the point of structural brain damage v functional. My son had a perfectly healthy appearing brain. Passed mri etc with glowif reports.
His brain function rapidly declined months later and a following MRI showed vital sections of his brain were paler than before therefore represented deterioration. I'd be very interested to know when the MRI was and if a follow up has been done. One MRI can mean nothing. Comparison can mean everything.

cjt110 · 13/07/2017 16:04

That sounds very harrowing Albadross and must be very painful for your friend to see this unfold.

GabsAlot · 13/07/2017 16:05

hes guessing at eveything an now will come here an spout more rivel

in his opinion

alltouchedout · 13/07/2017 16:05

There's going to be an adjournment isn't there? How long does this have to drag on? Poor Charlie :(

rabbitnothare · 13/07/2017 16:05

Why is this women even allowed in court with them? Doing her own skewed realtime reporting with the pro life stance.

Charlie Gard 6
cjt110 · 13/07/2017 16:06

Victoria Butler-Cole is now asking the witness questions on behalf of Charlie's legal guardian. A neutral position....

rabbitnothare · 13/07/2017 16:06

Come on judge, don't adjourn. This is not fair to Charlie.

GabsAlot · 13/07/2017 16:06

im going to go on othr thread now will carry on with the updats

MontyPythonsFlyingFuck · 13/07/2017 16:07

Can't help wondering if that was FrancisJ's first misstep - once the possibility of the US doctor coming over is out there, if he then determines it is futile/unnecessary, he's given a MASSIVE hostage to fortune.

darbyshaw · 13/07/2017 16:07

I wonder if at any stage the parents have sat down with someone independent and been given the truth straight? Or even if they did whether they would just immediately think the independent person wasn't actually independent at all? It just seems to suit their viewpoint that they don't need any real evidence to support their side of things, rather they just want to think everyone else is lying. It does seem to be completed beyond their comprehension that they could be wrong.

cjt110 · 13/07/2017 16:07

Are we hopping over to www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2978732-Charlie-Gard-7 now?

Sluttybartfast · 13/07/2017 16:08

The judge hasn't said he WILL ask for an adjournment for Dr Ny to examine Charlie and he hasn't heard from GOSH yet. He's asked a question to determine whether it's a legitimate possibility, and it's his duty to hear all relevant evidence and consider all appropriate possibilities.

flatbreads · 13/07/2017 16:08

Yes over there

Iris65 · 13/07/2017 16:09

I still can't get over the expert witness not having read the notes let alone assessing Charlie!
In my opinion we should never treat a person as a means to an end which seems to be the risk of allowing the experimental treatment.

PyongyangKipperbang · 13/07/2017 16:12

Yes I can see another adjournment. To be fair to the judge, he has to make sure that all the information is available to make a judgement. At the moment the doctors view is based on second hand, at best, information so him examining Charlie in person is the best way to go. But yet more delays means yet more suffering for Charlie.

GabsAlot · 13/07/2017 16:12

Judge orders 10 minute break

SomeDyke · 13/07/2017 16:18

" slowing of progession of disease in mice is the basis for expecting small but significant chance of brain improvement."
But this doesn't address Charlies case which is the (supposed) additional brain damage caused by his epilepsy (epileptic encephalopathy as referred to in previous judgement). The slowing of progression in mice, as I understand it, refers to different variants, and note slowing of progression.

Okay, so my non-medical understanding is that what the NY witness is primarily talking about is at the cellular level. They feel that they have evidence that the muscular effects can be improved, hence coming off ventilation a possibility. The 10% figure referred to that. That since they also have evidence as regards passing the blood-brain barrier, it could also improve the function of brain cells. But, functioning brain cells are not a functioning brain. That doesn't address the additional factor of the 'catastrophic' brain damage caused by epilepsy. Would appreciate if someone biological could explain the structural/functional bit for brains.

Latest:
"would you be prepared to come to London and examine Charlie if I adjourned the case? Answer: Yes."
So, NY witness admits they cannot assess the amount of possible brain improvement without coming to assess the amount of structural brain damage. Or do they mean that they personally are not qualified to assess that? I assume the former............

What I'm thinking here is that even if there were cellular improvement in terms of muscles and breathing but minimal or no improvement as regards brain function, then you might have Charlie being 'beyond experience', but able to breath unaided. So then he would either continue like that, or decline slowly (let's not forget the general decline that GOSH referred to in the position statement as I recall....), or you would remove the therapy, wait for him to decline to where he is now, and not ventilate and allow him to die.

If a child had the muscle issue but still retained some brain function, then I would agree that the therapy to extend the quality of life they already had would be worthy. As was the case for GOSH before the catastrophic brain damage from epilepsy. But when we have the additional factor of the supposedly disputed 'catastrophic' brain damage, we in some cases have what I feel is a worse scenario, and that may have a higher likelihood than the best case (improved muscle and improved brain function).

CaveMum · 13/07/2017 16:19

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