to think schools are making too many demands on parents

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...for time and money. I've had three texts this week about concerts, assembly and two demands for donations towards a beach area in the playground. I'm feeling totally overwhelmed by the weekly events during the day which you're texted about and chased by the Class rep to attend I work from full time form home so I have some flexibility but it's too much. The fundraising is another issue as they are always asking but it's not for essential things like books - an outdoor beach play area is the latest. How do you cope? One Mum said she doesn't engage with it at all but I struggle with the guilt.

I hear you OP but schools are in an impossible position, how often do we see threads on here with titles like "AIBU to be livid with the school" only to see that the reason is fairly nonsensical.

School funding has been brutally cut in the last 8-10 years but some schools and teachers are being disingenuous about how much money was previously available and how it was spent. There was a 'use it or lose it' approach to budgets, not just for schools but the whole of the public sector.

In the past I have seen numerous examples of schools funding things such as secondary teachers going on 'fact finding' trips to New York, or 3 day training trips in Spain, just to use up the budget, because if you didn't use it, you would lose it.

In many ways not the fault of the school because long term financial planning was neither encouraged, acknowledged or rewarded. If schools had a longer term IT strategy with a funding plan spanning 3 years, it was pretty much dismissed by the local authority. Hence why the culture of short term planning and last minute requests still exist.

However OP, as it is often said on Mumsnet, it is a request not a summons. Do what you can, don't feel guilty for what you can't.

Some schools waste money on on items to benefit the few not the many. Normally at the behest of PTA/ governors who have their own agenda.

If money was requested and i a) could spare it and b) thought it was for a worthwhile purpose then I contributed. If not I didn't, I don't see the big deal.

As to PTAs, my experience was that help was only on their terms. Meetings were all during the day or at 5pm/ 6pm. Deliberately impossible for any parent working ft with a commute of more than an hour, as I , to attend. They'd still bitch about how no one helped though!

All this settling your kid in to classes, going in with them etc, I think it's all a lot of unnecessary fuss, ditto the easing kids on by weeks of an hour or two, etc. I never went to any of the classroom sessions with either of mine because I had to work. It didn't affect them. If schools took more notice of the fact that many families either have both parents working, or are single parent working families, and that some of us shockingly don't have living relatives to help us either, the amount of demands for attendance would be significantly less.

But velvet sometimes it is only a few students who will need a specific item/support. Are you seriously saying because the majority don't the school shouldn't spend money on it?

I'm not going to flog the politics of this any longer on this thread in terms of who's responsible but I do want to address ops main point.

I think that passing costs on to parents has now become the norm so much in schools that it is an accepted part of a decision making process. Schools won't put forward and idea that they haven't costed so they've obviously planned something with the intention of it being parent funded from the outset. Even if finding were increased I doubt this practice would change now. This in itself isn't a problem until it becomes an established norm, which then effectively means going forwards parents are propping up school budgets. Like any other business, once a new funding channel is established its highly unlikely to be withdrawn. However, in any other business you would never be able to plan something you didn't have a budget for and given that the school curriculum and calendar are planned so far in advance, education shouldn't be any different.

The problem is that with all the one off / ad hoc payments, there is no transparency or accountability on the part of the school as to how much they are expecting people to contribute.

In my mind the best approach, short of asking parents to pay into a monthly fund (which would be like part privatising and would not then allow people to opt out who couldn't afford it) Would be to produce a termly statement of costs and when they will be due. Has anyone added up the total cost of what you've been asked to pay? It's something I would do before then taking a proposal to the school of how to address it.

Having some kind of termly statement would allow people to plan for costs, give transparency on total amount being asked for and reduce the number of class rep requests everytime there is something new.

I also think that when it comes to PTA, a better way to approach it would be to give them a fundraising target based on previous years AND desired project costs. That way everyone knows what they're working towards and the PTA have the chance to spread the fundraisers over the year with a clear idea of how much they need to raise at each event. Likewise the school community also knows more about what's expected from them.

Lastly, in terms of time I also think this is becoming an established practice that's not going to go away. Many schools have parents involved in the school day on things like lunch duty, coming in to help change for swimming / gym lessons, reading etc... as well as volunteer hours outside school such as clas trips, pta etc.

Likewise I think adding up all these hours and letting people know on average what is expected from them will help them to plan better. There will always be some who can do more than others but as someone personally who ALWAYS does more, I'm resentful of having to prop up people who can't be bothered (not those who can't, that's different). Its got to the point that this year I'm either doing the bare minimum or nothing because I've felt that too much has been asked of me in the past simply because of my good will. I'm someone who has complicated, sad and draining family responsibilities that no one else sees and this year I'm simply not going to be made to feel like I have to justify why I'm not doing as much as I was when the person next to me could do more.

So in short (sorry for the long post), it's not going to change unless you approach it differently. To do that it needs to be measurable and the school needs to be accountable to it.

Parents money and time is a valuable resource (anyone with a brain for numbers should be able to quantify what it's worth actually) and should be treated as such. It's easy to prey on peoples feelings because it's "for the good of their children" but I do think schools need to be wary in their approach as this practice continues otherwise people's good will and resources will be quickly expended (like mine) and that will be to the detriment of all.

' if there were more parents involved. If you would do better, what are you waiting for? What have you suggested?'

You are funny. Why do you assume critics of some PTAs aren't involved?

I saw four dc through four schools and helped out on every PTA, including a four year stint as secretary.

I am also a teacher who is the staff representative on our school's PTA and have been for 8 years.

I have also been unable to help for about 18 months due to something going on in my private life that knocked me for six, and felt the pressure whenever I said no.

So I've had quite a lot of experience of PTAs and stand by what I said : some are considerate, sensitive and welcoming whilst others rush around like self important fiefdoms telling everyone how, if they can find the time anyone can.

I recall a time when a friend was having a really tough time. Her relationship ended, she was forced to move house and start working full time. Her mum died and her dad had a life limiting illness. She told no one that she went straight from work to his house every day, three kids in tow, two hour round trip. I'll never forget a PTA self important volunteer telling her she needed to step up.

FWIW I'm face painting at the school disco next week, I know how important parents are to a school, but if you want to help then do so and stop guilting everyone else into doing the same.

Sirzy, it would depend on what it was. From memory of my DCs primary, some years ago now, we'd be asked to contribute to items for school teams which didn't cover the years my DC were in, or which they had no opportunity to join. Ditto certain music clubs, lunchtime gardening club etc. I wouldn't bother giving them money.

rainy that was such a bullshit post, you know absolutely fuck all about me or my circumstances so do one.

Reading through this thread I'm really pleased my DC is now at secondary! There are a lot less events and much less pressure to 'contribute' away from the school gates. I really cannot say whether my DC benefitted from a lot of what the PTA organised. Now it is not so prevalent in secondary but my DC enjoys school more.

I did used to volunteer. But it felt futile a times. A drop in the ocean. What I really wanted was high quality teaching not endless, and often meaningless, dress up days and class parties. A few of the teachers and ancillary staff at primary were excellent but some really weren't. I think part of the reason my DC really enjoys secondary is that the academic side of things is predominant and that is what is really interesting.

Tbh, tax rates are low in this country and for that there is what is really a good education system. Is the odd contribution too much to ask? Likewise the odd visit in to be a part of your child's education and school community?

tax rates are low in this country
Depends on your tax band, it's not that low for everybody!

No, but they cover a lot more than just education. Education is notoriously underfunded, and I don't think the odd fundraiser or whathaveyou is beyond those in the privileged position of being higher tax payers.

Parents money and time is a valuable resource (anyone with a brain for numbers should be able to quantify what it's worth actually) and should be treated as such.

A very thoughtful post Fruitbox but I also wanted to add that it is not just Parents' time and money but Teachers' time and money too. As another poster near the beginning said that they had paid for things out of their own pocket for their pupils (nearly the sum of a month's mortgage payment to me), that was glossed over by many subsequent posters (bar one), which shows that this issue does not just affect parents.
It makes me sick to the stomach to think that my child's teachers are spending that much of their own money to help benefit mine and others' children and that this is being ignored by the government and in some cases, parents.
Thank you to all the teachers/PTA out there

'rainy that was such a bullshit post, you know absolutely fuck all about me or my circumstances so do one'

Why is that directed at me? I haven't said anything about you or your circumstances, have I? But your delightful tone and willingness to disagree intelligently might be one of the reasons you struggle for volunteers.

'It makes me sick to the stomach to think that my child's teachers are spending that much of their own money to help benefit mine and others' children and that this is being ignored by the government and in some cases, parents.'

This is true. I don't know any teachers who don't buy things out of their own money.

I haven't kept track but it's certainly hundreds per year.

I wouldn't say anything I've bought has been essential, so not yet at the stage of propping up the budget in my school, but nice extra things that the school will no longer reimburse.

Over the last week - ice lollies to eat as a treat while we did some outdoor work, a range of food items for a science experiment, some pipe cleaners for art and £70 on three textbooks to get myself up to speed on both an area of the curriculum that's new to me and a new way of teaching maths that our school is about to adopt.

Nobody would notice if I didn't buy things, but they make our classroom a nicer place to be.

What about all the demands parents now make of the school?

I buy ink for my printer, the paper for my printer, audio books, any book to do with the text I am teaching at GCSE, pens, pencils.... I could go on. I do it because my dept has very little money and I need the above to do my job.

Because you quoted me rainy and then extrapolated some nonsense about my general snotty attitude from it, which was unfair and inaccurate.

All I said was, in a school of 200 families, if only 8 parents join the parent council, how shit would it be if I, or any other members, didn't participate? Very, is the answer, in a school which has run out of paper before. Not sure why that bothers you really.

I completely understand where you're coming from OP.

As whatpardonwhat said even if it's not mandatory it's definitely frowned upon if you don't do it, not to mention the kids don't want to be the only ones not doing something/not with the right kit etc.
I completely understand why the schools have no choice but to ask for time and donations and have many teacher friends who I empathise and agree with in every aspect HOWEVER when it comes to being asked for things I can't give, I too am one who feels guilty if I can't do every single thing, I think what gets me is if I can't attend something, or afford to give to something (because just went into the overdraft for £100 worth of school uniform that HAS to have the school emblem on, for example......) it seems like you get a million texts, emails, Facebook posts etc about it, as if I didn't feel awkward and guilty enough!

Just to add, that not in the school DCs attend, but one my friend teaches at, she and her fellow teachers had to buy pens and paper for students to use because their literally wasn't any money in the pot...that seems absolutdly disgusting and I'm sure ANY parent would find money to donate for anything like that, along with school trips etc etc, I was under the impression this was more to do with the PTA and "friends of the school" extra things, fundraising jumps and days and stunts and fayres and quizzes etc, that don't always feel particularly necessary at the time, along with the repeated "reminders" from some of the more aggressive parent council members

The problem with the funding for education is too much goes towards teachers' pensions just like in the NHS

Ah right - so let's blame the teachers' huge pensions eh?

Bloody hell, user - teachers get paid nowhere near enough for what they do every day, let alone their tiny pensions.

'I'm very sorry that us asking you for £2 here and there is so onerous, but if we didn't the kids would have fuck all to look forward to.
And I work full time as well as being part of the PC'

I didn't extrapolate a snotty attitude amy you displayed it right there, the attitude that puts so many people off volunteering.

Surely you can hear how backslapping that sounds, how superior? I concede that you might not display it in rl, but fair enough for me to pick up on it here I think.

I've sat in so many meetings listening to pta's saying similar things without any awareness that '£2 here and there' is a lot to some people, particularly if you have more than one child in school or the requests come in quick succession.

You also reference the 'if I can work full time and do it then anyone can' without any apparent understanding that some people have more than 'work' going on in their lives.

But I did also say that if your pta asks for money in a timely and thoughtful way then none of the criticism is levied at you, but rather at those committees who ask at short notice or in thoughtless clusters.

Is this more about the money, or more about demands for parental involvement and so on?

I totally understand that schools are under a lot of financial pressure right nowwe really should try to help as much as we can. That said, it would be great if schools considered a "donate ??? at the start of the year and we won't badger you with little cash requests for the rest of the year" systemfor those of us who would prefer it this way. Perhaps you could suggest such a system to the school?

I think schools should be carefully about demanding endless parental participation. Most mothers work these days, and being guilted into hanging around for school stuff all the time can cause a lot of stress. I think it's more important for schools to emphasize things like reading with your child, hearing them read, and doing some extra work during the summer--these things are likely to make a difference to kids' academics more than hanging around at a school assembly.

I do think teachers can be a bit unsympathetic to parents who get upset or feel guilty about being unable to attend daytime events because they work.

A few people on here have said they hate having to explain to their child that they can't attend, but of course full-time teachers can never attend their own child's school events.

We miss all the assemblies and sports days and book fairs, and can never help out on craft day or on a trip.

Sometimes it is quite hard, feeling like you are looking after other people's children while neglecting our own.

I know I'm guilty of being quite unsympathetic in the past if parents have grumbled about 'another event' they can't attend because they think it's been planned for the wrong time. I tend to think 'so what, just explain to your child why you can't attend, like I have to'.

Absolutely wrong if the school makes them feel guilty for not attending though I agree.

Sometimes it is quite hard, feeling like you are looking after other people's children while neglecting our own.

I feel exactly the same.

Me too Kitty, because I always have to help out at events, and can't ever be there just to have fun with my kids and see them enjoy the day.