Charlie Gard Case 4

[LovelyBath77]

A new thread to follow on from the others about this case

Not sure if it's been mentioned already in this thread, but people are now talking about "doing a collection" for the parents because it must be hard for them. I can't understand why they would do this because I thought the parents had asked for donations directly into their bank accounts already - presumably they are comfortable if this has happened. I'm not uncharitable but I do think another collection just adds to the madness surrounding the family - and if they do decide to let Charlie slip away in the future, they may find themselves vilified if people have invested energy and emotion in them and they change direction.

smilingmind I never considered how easily someone could use public info to use people's names on petitions

Scary!

I know someone who was declined for a foreign visa because of a petition they'ld signed as a student, makes you wonder, is there any way to check what petitions have your name on it?

GOSH team are unable to say what they have been subjected to, which is absolutely correct of course. I think it was appropriate that the Judge mentioned their stress yesterday.

How can so many posters be so sure he is in pain?

We're not
we're saying that if he has the capacity to feel pain, his condition would most certainly be painful were it not for the morphine he is reportedly on

or, he is not able to feel pain, in which case his brain damage is getting very close to becoming brain death

He is not able to express pain, which does not mean he is not in pain. It also doesn't mean that he definitely IS in pain, but if he's not it will be due to nerve/brain damage not due to being "well" or "Thriving"

either way not a good prognosis.

@ExConstance

Reverse your question, how can anyone be sure he is not in pain?

If there is a chance he is suffering is that right to prolong it.

Doctors say his levels of pain are hard to assess because he is not physically capable of presenting the "normal" indicators of pain.

From what they know of his condition it's likely he is in pain and this is why morphine is being administered.

Do you think in the absence of undeniable proof that it's better to assume he is not in pain and potentially allowing to suffer or better to assume that he is in pain and allow him a measure of comfort?

@ExConstance
Have you seen the photos? The poor little boy looks so uncomfortable at the very least. All that swelling, people have said here as adults that in itself is painful.
I am pretty sure I would believe the medical team who are caring for him and now his condition and treatments to if he is in pain and if they cause pain.

ExConstance The point is the parents INSIST he is not in pain. They don't KNOW this. The doctors don't INSIST he IS in pain, but that it is possible he is in pain. The former have no medical knowledge, the latter have huge amounts of knowledge. The former insist but don't know, the latter don't know but don't insist. Therein lies the difference.

Exconstance. The degree to which he is experiencing pain is very hard to establish, but the fact that skilled clinicians working at the highest level have put him on morphine must mean that there is a very high chance. No doctor prescribes an 11 month old that kind of drug for fun.
Also is pain the only indicator we should be looking at for quality of life?
I wouldn't want to be hooked up to a ventilator, unable to breathe unaided, cry, see, hear, move or swallow. In this context pain is only part of the picture.

@ExConstance you are correct in one aspect, I do feel morally superior to those thugs who are threatening a children's hospital and disrupting the lives of other families going through life and death experiences in there.

I do feel superior as I have bothered to read the court papers and do as much research as I can on the facts.

I would be thoroughly ashamed to be defending the CA in any sense, even to try and make myself look like a nice person.

@TinselTwins,oh ok thanks so wouldn't that make even less of a difference then in trying to basically smuggle him out of his own country ? I'm trying to get more info on Google ..is that why his parents were trying to stall with this court case? It's pretty clear there's no new evidence and this was a stalling tactic , from what I've read

It's true that you shouldn't judge someone based on their ability to be literate on FB, but I think that the mass hysteria and the lemming-like bandwagon-jumping certainly is an indication that there is little thought, reason or education behind what many of CA write.

@ExConstance

Just to add, I have stated previously I have no problem whatsoever with people presenting a different view to mine and engaging in a civil debate with them.

I will however admit to feeling "moral superiority" over people who think it's appropriate to make comments about GOSH being murderers and sending a bazooka to the hospital. One on tweet yesterday for example accusing GOSH of using morphine to deliberately dope Charlie so he'd look brain damaged for the court hearing - being "liked" many times over. It's totally indefensible defamation of GOSH and the medical team.

This case is so disturbing.

What Charlie's Army fails to recognise is that the court are enlisted by the GOSH to ensure that Charlie's own interests are taken into account. Where parents are unable to make a decision that is in the best interests of a child then the child is made a ward of court and the court determines what is best for them. This happens more frequently where treatment is refused on religious grounds to protect the life. If the court, as it is likely to based upon medical evidence, determines that Charlie is an extremely poorly child, who is likely to be in extreme pain with limited prospect of survival then this decision will be made in Charlie's best interests. No Judge would ever make this decision lightly.

What is unsavoury is that it is turned into an anti NHS, anti GOSH and pro- life argument.

The fact that Trump and evangelical pro-life preachers have jumped on the bandwaggon is unsavoury , how low can you stoop to score political points? With the state of medical care in the US is is frankly unbelievable.

I feel so sorry for the parents on the one hand but on the other why oh why can't they accept that GOSH and the UK courts would do anything other than act in the best interests of their poor baby?

DarthMaiden I hate the sue culture really but you are right, they are being defamed, hope some lawyer who wants to make a name goes out there and does a bit of pro bono work for GOSH on that.

Every few minutes a new post accusing them of cover ups and attempted murder.

I have reported that page three times now.

@TinselTwins,oh ok thanks so wouldn't that make even less of a difference then in trying to basically smuggle him out of his own country ?

Say for example:
I am citizen of country A
I am also citizen of country B
I live and am resident but not citizen in country C

Say I am in country C and feel my child is being held unjustly, I can use petition either embassy A or embassy B and ask them to work on my behalf IYKWIM

But, if I was in country A and felt country A were holding my child unjustly, I could not petition country B to work on my behalf, or vica versa.

Does that make sense?

So say CG DID get US citizenship (which isn't even on the table), and became dual American/English… that still would NOT give trump jurisdiction over what happens to him here in the UK and he could not force the courts or GOSHs hands

Whereas, a US ONLY citizen visiting or living here, he (or rather, the american embassy/consulate) could work on their behalf

I mean really? This is constant, how is it allowed?

exconstance

From what I've read, no-one is saying CA are not entitled to their views.

What they are not entitled to are their own facts.

Honestly, it's better for GOSH to just let CA gas amongst themselves - if they went after them for deflamation or libel or whatever it would be they would just end up looking like the bad guys

As it is, CA are doing a good enough job of discrediting themselves.

Well yes, I wasn't being entirely serious but it's just outrageous what they say.

The family could step in and stop this, Laura Gard runs the page.

@TinselTwins

That certainly is scarey. I have no idea how you would find out how many petitions your name is on. Possibly some you've never signed also if this case is anything to go by.
It's just another twist in the sad, horrible story.

ExConstance nobody knows if little Charlie is in pain or not. His parents insists that he isn't, whereas the medics are unsure. I pass no comment on his situation but wonder if you've received any intensive care treatment? Some of what they do is very unpleasant, uncomfortable and painful, even repositioning can be painful. If Charlie does have the capacity to feel pain, (and again, it's not my place to make any comment) I'm telling you that some of his treatment and care WILL cause pain.

I've not been able to find some of the unpleasant stuff that is being referred to, when people believe in a cause, no matter how misguidedly, they sometimes take extreme action. The problem for me is that those in authority have often been wrong. I only have to think about the Birmingham 6, Sally Clark and the Aysha King case to know how dangerous it is to believe the establishment is always right - and an incident like Grenfell to see that the more the establishment say something is OK the more likely it seems that it is not. I suppose CA think that "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” it troubles me deeply that their views are so despised.