Charlie gard case thread 2

[Fancythat69]

The last thread is full, Not sure if another has been started.

Theres a CA rally at GOSH planned for tomorrow. What are these people on?

It's completely immaterial whether Charlie had any vaccines or not. Completely.

I didn't hear the Nick Ferrari interview but I've heard Connie say that elsewhere - he didn't have his vaccinations. He became ill just before they were due.

Stopnamechanging, to be honest I'm surprised it's taken them this long to start wheeling out the conspiracy theories.

Thank you StiffyByng for another excellent explanation. Much appreciated.

Is there any chance that today's hearing could lead to a conclusion for poor Charlie or is it inevitable that this circus will drag on all week with CA whipping themselves and the poor family into even more of a frenzy?

Doesn't seem likely by all the mentions of a second hearing through the press coverage is written as if today is decision time.

The majority of the postings on the CA page aren't just ill-informed but also generally illiterate to the point where they are often hard to even read. And people urging other illiterates to go to the ITV news page and fill it full of comments because some people are daring to suggest a view different to theirs (and anyone with a different view is a "hater" and "ignorant" and "ignoring the evidence"). They were even complaining about someone who showed a tiny bit of concern about the current state of affairs as "an idiot who thinks they know it all" without a trace of irony.

Woman on there today saying the planned protest in Blackpool didn't go as well as hoped because the local newspaper didn't turn up but about 6 people joined her and her daughter carrying a piece of cardboard saying "Beep if you support Charlie Gard".

The constant repetitions of "while Charlie is fighting, we're still fighting". FFS he isn't fighting. The ventilator is fighting.

Vaccines!!! For Gods Sake this little boy is becoming a cause for just about anyone to pin a ribbon too! I actually wish that the judge today would, in the first instance, order a news blackout on the whole thing. Really at the end of the day the only people would should be involved in this are the parents, GOSH, any other medical teams who have information they think might help and the courts to oversee the process. Everyone else has an opinion, but nothing else to bring to the party.
I am not sure that is even possible and probably it is impractical to get the genie back in the bottle. However whatever the outcome Charlie's parents will have to live with their decision to play this out in the public eye for the rest of their lives. I hope that they don't regret that this time in Charlie's life, quite possibly Charlie's last days was filled with such negative emotions. They said they want to build memories. Let's hope they are happy with the ones they are building.

They're not going to accept anything that is ruled over here. They seem to have lost faith in the entire British system and will settle for nothing less than getting their way and Charlie being taken abroad.
But the law in this country isnt run according to popular opinion. Thankfully, so far, it's not an X Factor phone vote.

I too am getting too involved. I have left (and rejoined) Mumsnet twice in the last ten days or so to try to stop myself, but I keep being drawn back to the thread (s).

I don't quite understand what happens if the judge today dismisses their "new evidence" and decides it isn't enough to go back to trial.

Would that be the end of this?

I am getting a bit angry, no I am quite angry at this circus.

I completely agree that there should now be a D notice or equivalent on this case. Some courts are heard in camera, this should now be one of them.

If the parents do not accept the court decision, they are probably entitled to take it all the way to the European Court of Human Rights, by which time the child will deteriorate and possibly die.

If the parents do not accept final judgment I am beginning to think they should be held in contempt of court. But that would just enlarge the circus.

Impossible to have much sympathy with the parents now, I am very sorry to say that, but their dignity and the dignity of their dying child seems to have gone out the window.

Could the child be made a Ward of Court I wonder and leave the parents and the "army" out of it now?

The most distasteful conspiracy theory that I've read so far was on the CA USA page. The poster said that in her opinon the reason GOSH wanted "to kill" Charlie was so that they could have his body in order to "steal" his DNA to use in their own future research.

This is the power of the post truth era- where ignorance is king and feelings trump (apt) facts. The CA page is a great example of this. People in there are responding with their feelings and with their general mistrust of anyone more qualified than them in the field. It is madness.

thatdearoctopus

They're not going to accept anything that is ruled over here. They seem to have lost faith in the entire British system and will settle for nothing less than getting their way and Charlie being taken abroad
But the law in this country isnt run according to popular opinion. Thankfully, so far, it's not an X Factor phone vote.*

Good post. It is clear that too many people - the parents included - have no concept of what the word "law" actually means. They really think they can manipulate it for their own purposes. It's as if they think "people power" can win. It is batshit crazy.

It's like that Terry Pratchett quote: the IQ of a mob is the IQ of the stupidest member divided by the number of people. Where is the rational thought here?

I so hope that this whole sorry situation is resolved by the courts. IMO, the parents' stance is deeply harmful.

Is a move to the US really still feasible though? Surely the chance of harm is high just through the logistics. Does anyone know of the process of actual transatlantic ICU transfer?

The reason I ask is that when my DH was ill and we were overseas - on full life support in ICU - I was told clearly that a repatriation would likely kill him because of the trauma involved in the moving and flight process.

In our case it was made clear that DH could not travel on a jet due to the effect of air pressure on his condition and the journey would have to be undertaken at lower altitudes. So what would be a 10 hour flight in a commercial jet would have been 52 hours in a twin prop with multiple stops for refuelling.

To answer above question it can give varying amounts of oxygen depending on the requirement.

Me too Soda and I started out disagreeing with the court's decision not to let them take Charlie to America.

It's gone way beyond that now. Maybe last year he should have gone. But this poor baby isn't going anywhere.

I think if the court do rule that he can go abroad for further 'treatment' it will lead to more and more cases like this. Decisions like this need to be in the hands of professionals otherwise the over emotional 'life at all costs' message will take priority over patient care, wellbeing and quality of life.

People of all ages die and very sick, terminally ill and people with no quality of life should not be forced to continue existing merely because their relatives are unable to face what is a normal, if very painful, life stage.

Public sympathy won't change a judicial decision

This is true, and also a very good thing ... after all, if some believe that the fuss might influence the judge to give the parents what they want, they'd also have to accept that the appalling abuse heaped upon GOSH might influence him the other way

Absolutely no dignity for this child.

Taking photographs whilst standing over a gravely ill child with two strangers you have only just met is something I can never accept.

I am trying not to get angry or judge but it's very difficult.

That judgement has a statement from a nurse who had spent a high number of hours nursing Charlie in the ICU, who had to say in contrast to the mother's statement that there was a sleep/wake cycle, Charlie squeezed her hand, reacted to her - the nurse had been unable over all that time spent nursing him, to see him react or move in the way his mother was describing, and that it was not possible to distinguish either asleep or awake. The child she was nursing was completely unresponsive. This was April, and it's unlikely Charlie's rapidly progressive condition has stayed static since then.

So unfortunately the enjoying watching an ipad (Charlie is also profoundly deaf) and enjoying tickles is only in the perception of the parents. It is not fair to aggressively pursue treatment that prolongs suffering for a child when there is no hope or purpose for the child. It's unethical, it could be interpreted as abusive.

This is a landmark case in that it will set a legal precedent for other cases yet to come. Charlie's parents' lawyers tried to claim to the ECHR that Charlie's best interests (so an article from the United Nations Convention of Rights of the Child that the UK is signed up to) should not take precedence over his parents. They actually were ok with publically framing it in those terms. That's terrifying. Today's ruling is going to have to look at what legal precedent this sets and whether this will impact on the rights and best interests of many other children, not just Charlie.

But the law in this country isnt run according to popular opinion. Thankfully, so far, it's not an X Factor phone vote

Exactly.

I was thinking the same. This case (and most of live these days) is being dumbed down to a click on a mobile phone - like a vote on a cheap bloody celebrity show. 'Like' a post on the CG face book page, post a bit of vitriol about a children's hospital and then go back to picking your nose. Laws aren't made that way and, thank god, neither is this how the best interests for charlie will be determined.