To hate the way I come across?

[RingTailedLemurFan]

I'm one of those people who seem to get other people's heckles up, I'm sure.

Feeling sad about it, because I don't mean to come across a certain way, it just happens. You have to really get to know me before you like me. Wish I was one of those people who everyone instantly likes and talks to

YoucanbutImnot you are lucky to have a really kind husband, I think that's worth umpteen flimsy groups of friends. I'm single and I sometimes wonder if all of this feeling invisible hurts more when you're single but I have not caved to the give in and go out with wrong-man thing. Well, they all turn out to be wrong-man in the end but if I know from the outset they're wrong then I wont try.

I was telling an x colleague recently that I was planning to try and get in to event co-ordination. He listened to me and then suggested I get a job in a coffee shop as he thought that'd be better fit. I wouldn't mind that in some ways but I have a plan, so it wouldn't be a good fit because it doesn't fit in with my plan. At my last job I was reprimanded for everything for not being part of the team but they were the ones who wouldn't include me. I have old wounds from being excluded, sacked, rejected and dumped and unseen and unfortunately being frozen out and then sacked opened up an old wound which took a lot of energy to deal with. But I did. I think.

I was telling an x colleague recently that I was planning to try and get in to event co-ordination. He listened to me and then suggested I get a job in a coffee shop as he thought that'd be better fit.

What was he implying exactly? I'd be quite insulted if someone told me to get a job in a coffee shop if I wanted/was capable of aiming a bit higher. Disclaimer: no offence to people who work in coffee shops.

This is why I worry that I don't come across like I think I do. I think he was implying that I would find it really difficult and that I wouldn't be able for it. I know I would be able for it! It's getting the right break, learning the ropes. I did one of those personality tests and it suggests jobs and event co-ordination was one of them. I remember events I'd organised (not at work) and how I'd enjoyed doing it even though I wasn't being paid. I felt that he was implying that I'd struggle with that responsibility and then as soon as I stopped talking he said I should work in a coffee shop. He knows I'm friendly and like company but I want a job that can progress and a job that challenges me in a way I can cope with and I know I could do it if I got a break. NOt everybody, I do feel like some people believe in me but another small group of friends, I told them that plan and one said that the pound shop were looking for staff. I'm not being snobby but all of my CV so far is office work of one description or another and I'm not at financial dire straits yet so I think it'd be stupid to suddenly give up and work in a pound shop or a coffee shop. I know I have to believe in myself, it's not that I need people behind me championing me and encouraging me every step of the way! But I do wonder if I come across as organised and efficient as I really am. If I were selling this house and the vendors wanted to know how the gas bill from the previous tennants (5 people) compared to how it compares now with 3 people, I could find that info in the right lever arch file I don't want a medal for that but I just can't understand why this innate organisation doesn't come across. I dress very simply and would never be scruffy. I'm punctual (too punctual) reliable, conscientious. I don't know if this is the image I'm putting out there though. Right enough moaning and whining, I have some tasks to work on today for my CV.

He listened to me and then suggested I get a job in a coffee shop as he thought that'd be better fit.

What a tosser.

That's really interesting CosmoClock. In fact, it made me think of a colleague I worked with some time ago. It was her first job out of university and she was a really lovely girl but was generally considered a bit of a ditz. She was really good fun, kind but made quite a few clangers at work. She ended up going back to uni and retraining to be a doctor. She was clearly intelligent but I think it was a bit of a case of square peg in a round hole.

I think maybe part of the problem could be that you are working in a job/organisation where the 'fit' isn't right. My last role was in sales and marketing. I suddenly realised that the ideal staff member was young, slim, blonde, prosecco drinking, BMW driving career girl focused on making money with little or no regard for anyone else. I am now in a role that is more in line with me and my values.

Could you start by helping out a charity? There are a few around us who hold open days and I'm sure that would be a great start.

Cosmo I've also found it wise/easier to keep my plans and ideas to myself. People can be very critical and if you're not 100% confident it can cause you to wobble/doubt yourself.

Far better to tell people after you've achieved something. "Well, I've been doing a bit of voluntary work and ended up organising the open day at the dog rescue centre. Oh, it was great. It went reaaaallllyyyy well and they've asked me to do to organise a volunteering recruitment event for them at the end of the year...."

No mention of how you'd like to find an events job or what a struggle it's been. never. never. ever. If you sound successful people will believe you are successful.

This is an interesting thread. I think you've just been unlucky that the school mums are not a very nice or considerate group of people. I think the non invite says a hell of a lot more about them than you. I think the fact you have other good friends shows it's far more likely to be them than you.

I not convinced that the resting bitchy face has that much to do with it. I suspect it's more to do with being reserved/shy/quiet/withdrawn or whatever and possibly coming across as uninterested. IYSWIM I think people get lazy and busy and if it seems like it might be hard work to get through to someone then they don't bother. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I've moved a lot and have had to make new friends regularly. Someone being quiet wouldn't put me off in the slightest.

user interesting you say that because I'm trying to identify my values and my brand. I used to be a broker and the pushiness wasn't for me, I hid behind a fake shield. Also, the competition of beating our competitors to business because we'd cut .07% of their fee left me underwhelmed but I could see looking around me that it did energise the others. I was perceived to be a bit of a weirdo there too! I didn't fit in. I wasn't from Essex and I wasn't a cut glass RP-speaking identikit blonde. I had curly red hair and I had an Irish accent and I was pushed in to Lloyd's market and told to ham it up. Ham what up. Your ''mad Irishness!''. Am I mad? First I knew of it. I feel like I have all of this self-awareness in a psychological way, so I know myself as a person but I'm trying to know myself as an employee now. The problem might be partly that I cannot just walk in to the job that reflects me. It will be a slow ascent up another greasy pole! And I'm in my forties this time around! The man I'm friends with, we get on very well as people but I know he doesn't understand the obstacles that mothers face. He would look at me and see ''choices'' where I felt cornered.

Yes, it is better to keep long term plans to oneself, I agree with that and I know myself well enough now to know that if I'm met with a sea of skeptical faces, I weakly allow that to de-rail me, so for that reason alone I keep things a bit quieter than I used to.

Yes, this is also me.

I know people to smile and say hello to, but nothing beyond that. I'm not a natural conversationist and tend to hang back. I also have a touch of the resting bitch face. I'm sure this makes me appear aloof and stand offish to others. Which I'm not, I'm just socially a bit crap.

So, I tried to make more of an effort, but because it's not "me" I'm sure I just come off sounding false.

Cosmo I think the thing that helped me was finding a friend who had retrained and was doing a job in a similar area to the one I was interested in. For the first ever, I had someone who was interested and encouraging me to go for it. It then dawned on me that I get on really well with all the people I know who work in similar areas. I also realised that although I can chat to them I have no interest in the sales and marketing types (no offence to them!).

More than anything, I think it is about finding 'your tribe'.

Very early days for me on the work front so time will tell, however, I am also 40s and at the bottom of another greasy pole. I just keep reminding myself I have a fairly secure job in a decent organisation with prospects. There are lots of middle aged to older women around me and considering I am going to work for about another twenty years that gives me some hope!

I like the idea of building your brand. Might have a go at that myself!

I'm the opposite! I come across as too cool and wish I could be like you, confident and chatty straight away. It takes me a while so people often think I'm a bitch!

Hello my lovely Marmite Vipers!

So sorry to read more stories of colleagues and school Mums being horrible. It's worse when you think you're all mutual friends, then find out they're meeting in secret huh? I agree with the pp who said it says more about them then us.

SadSongsAndWaltzes

Can I join in? I feel the same. I'm most definitely an extrovert, in that I crave being around other people and can't stand being on my own (even I think I'm annoying!) but I'm also quite socially anxious. I seem to have no filter like most people have, and will often just blurt out whatever comes into my head. I talk way too much, all about me, and then feel awful after the event and worry how I came across.

Yessss! I could have written this verbatim. So good to know I'm not alone, and this thread has proven that.

I17neednumbers

"tonight discovered they've all organised a night out together and not invited me."

Sympathies, that is a truly horrible feeling - but is it possible it's not deliberate?

Sadly not - the lady in question was showing me her phone, which had a Facebook Messenger group chat going titled "Mums Night Out" and was showing me who was on it It was such a mixed group, hence my disappointment. I know that there are groups of Mums who live on the same estate, or have kids in the same class, etc, but the list was eclectic. Was chatting to one of them in the playground at pick up and she didn't invite me or mention it. Dh says I should casually say something in passing, but I don't think I could pull off being casual...

Oh that sounds so hard lemur, I'd be really upset too. Is there one of them you know a bit better or feel more comfortable with who you could ask about it? Maybe just saying something like "Oh, I heard you were planning a night out on Saturday, what are you up to?". It might help to hear what they say - maybe it was suggested by someone you don't know as well, or its something they don't think would interest you. That's easy for me to suggest though, much harder to actually do.

Why were you being shown a messenger group for a mums' night out?

@SadSongsAndWaltzes thanks for your advice. There are a couple of them I'm more friendly with (one I've babysat for a couple of times, the other we have been to baby and toddler groups together as have similar aged dc). It's just getting the chance to speak to them on their own, without making it a big deal. We're all so busy so normally only see each other in passing at school really, or in the playground where there are lots of ears!

@cheeseandpineapple I was at an extra-curricular activity on Tues night when I got chatting to one of the women. She had her mobile in her hand and cheerily/casually said "oh, are you going to the Mums Night Out?" And I was like "huh? Don't know anything about it..." So she quickly tapped the icon and brought up the group chat and started scrolling through the names, looking for mine I presume. When we realised I wasn't on there she said "oh. I don't know how to add people on here".

I still haven't been added. Meh, maybe other pp's are right and it's a genuine mix-up. Doubt it though, as surely someone would have told me or added me by now. Never mind.

If it's been organised via a FB messenger group then message the two you're closer to via messenger and say that x (mum who showed you the group message) mentioned about a night out on Saturday which sounds fun and you'd love to join, could they let you know the details or add you to the group? Given the size and diversity of the group I wouldn't over think this. If it was a smaller select group it might be more sensitive but the way you've described it I don't think there's been a conspiracy to exclude so go with the benefit of the doubt and follow up on this.

If you really do think you over dominate in groups and don't listen to what people are saying, use the night out to work on that and your EQ. You're self aware about yourself but need to be picking up signals from the people you're with about whether you're holding their attention or not.

Ring tailed, funnily to me that sounds quite possibly non-deliberate! It's so easy to forget to include a person in a group list, then nobody else reads it carefully and notices. And the fact that one of the group asked you if you were going suggests that she assumed you were included, so obviously there is no 'ssh don't tell ringtailed', going on.

I can see why you wouldn't just want to go along, although I do think that is an option - but I wouldn't assume you've been excluded deliberately.

Think I've found my people here.

I was bullied a lot at secondary school (one girl in our group would turn the others against me, always making fun, then it would be ok for a couple of weeks and then it would start again) and I have been left with a lot of social anxiety issues.

I think as a teenager I missed out on having a good group of friends and doing the clubbing thing which makes me sad. In my twenties I really struggled with self esteem and social anxiety. I was terrible in social situations and used to socialise mainly through work. All the same I have known me be excluded from social events in a similar fashion to most of you.

I've got a lot better since I had kids. I've mostly been a sahm and I think in a way it forces you to become friendlier. I'm better a small talk and I speak to lots of people I know from school. I still struggle tho with how to change acquaintances into friends. I would say I know a lot of people from the school yard but I'm not sure how many are friends. And I also know there's some out of school socialising going on that I'm not included in. I feel envious about the people who seem to be in a room of new people for 5 mins and they're everyone's best friend. I can also recognise the devil and the angel scenario well!!

The only advice I can offer it to be kind to yourself, be a good listener and be genuine.

Xx

I agree that it sounds like an accidental omission rather than a deliberate exclusion. I would understand this still feeling hurtful, but I honestly wouldn't take it as a sign of anything more sinister.

Thanks everyone. In the cold light of day, I can see maybe it is just an oversight. I guess I just struggle to understand when people can be so....unobservant?!

I'm very conscientious and notice every detail, so would see that someone was missing from the group chat. I realise that this isn't the case for everyone though.

Coupled with the fact I know I'm a marmite character, that's why I jumped to conclusions and got upset the other night. I do really care too much about what others think of me, and overthink things. Will try to work on this over the summer

Madam sounds like you had a tough start with all things friendship related That's great that being a SAHM has helped in a way. I know what you mean about making small talk in the playground (Though I always worry I'm boring Even though we all know you can't get into in-depth interesting debates in the playground when you have 3mins!). I too can chat to anyone and everyone, and have done for almost two academic years, but I wouldn't say I've made a single friend in the true sense of the word.

Thank you for your kind words and advice

Are you going tonight?!

I'm reading this post with interest as I have similar problems with large groups and actually posted about my work colleagues recently. They all seemed to like me and get on with me but declined my friend requests on Facebook and decided to go out for lunch without inviting me. I couldn't understand it and actually now I've backed off a bit I realise they aren't that cool or fun after all. I make friends out of work so I think I must also be a slow burner type and maybe have a tendency to get a bit shouty and interrupt in large groups as part of overeagerness to make friends and be part of the crowd.