National Trust room guides - AIBU

[lucydogz]

Just once, I'd like to look round a National Trust property without someone telling me about it. You can avoid eye contact in properties with larger rooms, but I've just been to a small property , so just me in a series of tiny rooms with a very nice lady/man sitting in the corner, just waiting to tell me about it. I just don't need it and want to make my own mind about it.

They are room guards, essentially. It seems to me that the explanatory function has been kind of tacked on

I think this is a valid point, they need people to guard the rooms. But it seems they can't win. Once you put someone in the room, then visitors will ask them questions. If they just shrugged their shoulders and said 'Dunno, I'm just stopping people from nicking stuff' then there would probably be four pages of people on here moaning that they pay a lot to get into the properties and there was no one able to answer their questions. So they have trained up the volunteers to guard rooms and talk about the history. They are trying to appeal to everyone but sometimes they will get things wrong.

However, I still wonder why it is considered wrong by some people for someone to approach them and try to talk to them. If you don't like it just move away politely, but I don't think people should be complained about for trying.

And lanouvelle I generally want to know about the painter, the date, and the provenance. Sometimes there are explanatory cards, but they often don't have the really detailed information, which I know the actual NT curators will have. Why can't they have that kind of detailed information for those of us that want it? It doesn't need to be compulsory.

I had an interesting experience at an NT house while visiting Devon. It is a relaxed and relatively small "great house" - indeed, hardly the typical grand house at all, and I was talking about this with my companions. We were overheard by an historical architect commissioned by the NT to work on the place, and he gave us all sorts of really interesting information about it's history. He added to our perception that it was a modest place - indeed, he said that historically, it was actually a temporary building, while a much grander place was built - although that had never happened.

It was really interesting, chatting to an expert (I'm not an architectural historian, but in a cognate discipline) BUT none of that information was actually available in the ouse. It was all set out for grandeur & "graceful living" in the country.

The biggest snobs in all this are the National Trust, I find. They pander to people's inaccurate ideas of past lives - particularly that most of us visiting would have been working 12 hours a day 6 and a half days a week in the scullery.

I want to make my own mind up about a room. Then ask questions if I want to. Of course I'll always make eye contact and smile, but I don't need someone to mediate the experience for me. The nt is heavily into notices asking me what I think the cook/stable boy/parlour maid thought of such and such. A - I'll never know. B- I don't care. And I don't need to see anyone in costume either. I think, in it's drive to get families in, they forget that everybody grows up and needs grown up stuff.

Absolutely, I'm not saying the NT volunteers shouldn't be trained - I imagine it's enriching for them to know more about the house. And you could see some of those paintings/objects every day for years and still find new things to look at each time.

What I'm objecting to is this being the SOLE source of interpretation. I think there should ALSO be a decent level of written information, with expert indepth 'extensions', and interactive activities to stop kiddiewinkies getting bored too.

Some of the stuff you get from volunteers is also quite, ahem, unreconstructed as well. I went to see a house in the south-west and the volunteer said "This is the ultimate man-cave, women don't appreciate it, it's just full of books and music". I absolutely loved it, and was left wondering what kind of messages this bloke would be sending to young girls.

Was it Compton Castle weyhey? Or the manor house in Newton Abbot? We were there yesterday, and I was disappointed in the way that Compton Castle was displayed as the residence of a family, rather than in the interest of the building itself

I don't really think the NT can afford to have an historical architect stationed in every room! Even if there were enough of them!

And also I think a large proportion of visitors like the upstairs/downstairs aspect. Kitchens are very popular. If there were more emphasis on paintings, the artists and their provenance etc etc I 'm sure there would be loads of people moaning that the houses were too dry .

Also, the family stuff. Er, there is an ongoing thread, "We took you to stately homes..." the title implying that stately homes are boring . But people on here are complaining those stately homes are trying to appeal to younger visitors.

Honestly, has no one ever heard of trying to enjoy things on different levels? You don't have to do the trail if you're 45 years old!

I think it must vary from property to property. There are some where the written interpretation is good, and there are printed sheets to go with each room. Others I agree do not have enough information. I think some properties are seen as there 'Jewel in the Crown' and get a lot of investment but others get very little. The guide books vary in quality too.

I agree with others that for me the problem isn't the guides trying to talk to me - I don't mind that - it's how inaccessible the actual information is. They seem to actively resist labelling things - but I want labels!

But what people are saying is that there is very little intelligent information at properties. And I'd agree with that. But the nt really aren't listening to people like us, are they cement?

Compton Castle is still a family home though isn't it?

I don't think the stately homes thread is implying that stately homes are boring. It's implying that taking kids to NT properties to fulfill some kind of middle class ideal of parenting is not a substitute for supplying proper love, warmth and care. The phrase is "But we took you to stately homes! (Implying: How can you say we are bad parents?)".

The point, as lucy says, is that we don't have to have an architectural historian standing in each room because there is this wonderful invention called writing, which can communicate knowledge in someone's absence.

LadyinCement I don't disagree with what you say - balancing different categories of people & their interests is a tough job.

BUT, I think what I find annoying is that while there is plenty of "dumbing down" stuff, based on assumptions about what is boring for children, there is very little expert information available. Just a set of more detailed laminated information cards would be great.

Lanouvelle it was Killington, from memory. And we were lucky - the man we spoke to just happened to overhear us discussing the non-stateliness of the house. He described it as a sort of "caravan" for the family to live in while the grander house was being built. Put a whole different complexion on things.

On that same trip, we were lucky enough to be the only 3 people signing up for a guided tour of the gardens at Greenway. And the volunteer who took us was a gardening history expert, and took us through for about 90 minutes (instead of 45). It was brilliant! I learnt a lot.

I think the family slant can work really well but the nt seems determined to do every house that way, even if the house is more interesting than the family.

It's great there are people who give up their time to volunteer for the NT. The lack of [easily accessible] written information about the property is a pita though. And some room guides do get it right when it comes to judging who might be interested in engaging with them & who'd prefer to be left alone. But some get it very VERY wrong.

Take, for example, the man who thought it appropriate to block the exit to a room while insisting my friends & I had to try playing the piano that was in there before we left. We were all in our twenties at the time, but two of us looked like teenagers, which I can't help but feel ups the level of inappropriateness. We tried explaining none of us actually play the piano & he apparently thought he was living the regency novel dream & went full "no, you're too modest, I insist you play". One of us dredged her memory for childhood piano lessons & played something that sounded quite pretty & weirdy man then released us.

Worse than The Man Who Thought He Was An Austen Character, however, were the NT volunteers I encountered going round a property in a wheelchair. TBF in another property I'd done fine, so clearly it's not universal. And hopefully it's very much improved at that property after the complaint I made. Because it's not appropriate to do a Hushed Whispers conversation about how I am A Poor Little Thing, nor to pat/stroke me. The nadir of the visit was the clock room where a volunteer came & leant right into my face & very slowly & loudly enunciated every syllable of "look at the clocks; aren't they nice and shiny dear?" Am only slightly ashamed that my response was to talk to the friends I was there with about clocks as a form of conspicuous consumption, the concept of controlling time vs being controlled by it by measuring it, how weird I find it that the UK didn't have a single time zone until 1880 (in law, though railway time came in in 1840) but instead a load of local time zones (it just seems so late...), and the importance of time measurement/clocks to the industrial revolution...

This thread makes me think of this Steve Coogan scene from The Trip (from 20 secs in).

The stickers idea is excellent - can't see why the NT wouldn't take it on.

I have to say I find the NT volunteers at the ticket desk to be over the top pushy trying to sell the membership and gift aid enhanced price. Really puts me off and thank you £13.50 is enough to pay without a premium on top.

Agree totally re Earl of Wanksville post. Every time I go to a stately home I remember how fucking shit the patriarchy and class system was then and still is now and get really pissed off. I am running out of places to go on days out. Don't agree with aquariums, 99% of zoos, see above re stately homes...

it was Killington, from memory. And we were lucky - the man we spoke to just happened to overhear us discussing the non-stateliness of the house. He described it as a sort of "caravan" for the family to live in while the grander house was being built. Put a whole different complexion on things

do you mean Killerton? That's interesting, I've done the parkrun there a few times (best reason to visit an NT property in my view) and visited the house, I didn't know that about it being a kind of temporary pad.

Many of these comments speak to me. I can be incredibly socially awkward sometimes and as I have to talk to people all week I really enjoy a day out with minimal interactions. Too stressful, stops me from visiting. Many guides are great for sure, but some have fewer social skills than me but in the opposite direction! I also agree that the 'experiences' aimed at 8-12 yr old children can be dominating and tiresome.

Can I give you a recommendation? If you are near Matlock Bath pop into Masson Mills and take yourself on a factory tour. It's brilliantly un-glossy. You have to make your way through a shopping centre (mostly candles, golf jumpers and comfortable shoes as far as I can make out) to find your way in. The door is near the Craggy Island style children's play area.

They have some of the looms working twice a day but that's it, you are left to yourself to explore the workshops, water mills, boiler rooms etc. There are QR codes dotted around if you want some more info.

It's a goldmine of working/industrial history in there and at some point I fear they will get a lottery grant, tidy it up and fill it with costumed facilitators and hologram characters. Get there while you can!

Can you tell us which NT properties have guides that do this?

Nostell Priory for one. Brodsworth Hall is another (which is English Heritage.) Going to be sexist here, but in my experience, it's usually a male guide who does it. They can't wait to display their knowledge of each and every room, every item in the room and the surrounding area, within a radius of 20 miles.

Can't remember getting caught by anyone at Hardwick Hall although I was trying to give out 'fuck off' vibes. My DH says I'm rude and I probably am, but I daren't smile or say 'hello' to anyone in case I can't get away. I just want to soak up the ambience without having to have a conversation I don't want. I know Chatsworth is privately owned, but I can't even remember seeing a guide there (although I know there must have been).

Absolutely no objection to guides who approach you and then let you go if you move away politely/explain that you are there for a specific purpose.

But there are a few who don't give up easily, and in that case I don't think it's a question of "you can't win"; it's a question of either not having been given appropriate training or ignoring it.

As volunteers, they do represent the house and the organisation in general, so it does actually matter how they come across.

And that is even more so when it comes to disability/diversity training. The experience recounted by Zebra above is horrendous. I don't see how anyone could defend that on the basis that "they can't win".

I, too, had a bad experience at Brodsworth. I think that's at least 3 of us on this thread who have singled that place out.

I'm glad to hear that a few of you like my red and green lapel stickers idea

and yes to the PP, it was indeed Calke Abbey!

Fortunately the property I volunteer at (must not say 'my property'...) Does indeed have laminated info for each room, lots of copies which visitors can take, read and return.

And it is clear that managing some volunteers is a challenge, although some of the younger paid staff need far more of a boot up the bum in customer empathy....