National Trust room guides - AIBU

[lucydogz]

Just once, I'd like to look round a National Trust property without someone telling me about it. You can avoid eye contact in properties with larger rooms, but I've just been to a small property , so just me in a series of tiny rooms with a very nice lady/man sitting in the corner, just waiting to tell me about it. I just don't need it and want to make my own mind about it.

Ooh , you have all made me feel I look really unapproachable !
I have never been hassled in NT properties . LOL

They do vary in their enthusiasm but I have perfected a brusque nod and "hello" which puts all but the most dedicated-to-chat off.
Dunham Massey was littered with display boards about one era which spoilt the experience for me. Hill Top is the worst for being simultaneously shunted round and buttonholed by volunteers wittering on. Allan Bank in Grasmere is one of the best - cake for donations, use the rooms as you like, here's a deck chair for the gardens.
I am usually polite but one young man would not take the hint that I didn't want a Dummies Guide to the old books in the library so I eventually had to say "I know, please let me look on my own", which felt very rude but he was driving me mad!
Some private stately homes are better. We go to a local one that is rarely open to the public and the family still own it and live there. I don't like tour guides but the ones there really know their stuff and have often known the family for years.

So much intellectual snobbery. If you're an expert in the field, have a quiet 'chat' and talk to them about the architecture, other aspects of the history or other facts which challenge what they have said etc. in a general conversation. Don't just walk away feeling superior and slag them off later. Those people give up their time free of charge to keep these places accessible to the public so that we and our children can continue to learn from them.

They might not have a PhD in the area, or have studied the subject for years. They might have read a few books, spoken to other people, they might have their facts wrong, they might be interested in social history or know a few stories which might not be your cup of tea, but picking fault and slagging them off, just makes people come across as a bit twatty.

Slightly OT, but speaking of dumbing down, they've ruined Conisborough Castle with this. They had a huge millions of pounds worth of refurbishment a few years ago and they've somehow managed to trash it and remove all its soul.

All the information signs are now in comic sans which my teenager thought was hilarious for all the wrong reasons and they've ruined the interior of the keep. Considering how much they've spent, the new visitors centre looks terribly cheap and tacky.

Families are one of their target audiences, hence the dumbed down interpretation

If this is true, they're really shooting themselves in the foot. We decided never to go back to CC as we hated it that much (an English Heritage property btw).

Full marks to the NT volunteer who suggested, despite my protestations, that my 8 year old son should tinkle on the piano. then, along comes the grumpiest NT volunteer who promptly removed my son from the piano, muttering about small children in NT properties.

I agree, please just leave is to muddle along by ourselves.

I agree OP. I'm rather anti social and enjoy my own (or just me and DH's) company. When I walk into a NT room and see a guide sat there I immediately start feeling anxious and want to rush through it to avoid them.

I often fantasise about saying "sorry - no English!) 😁

Wouldn't be so bad if they just waited to be spoken to rather than pouncing on people.

BTW if you know something I don't, tell me - one of the biggest rewards of volunteering is learning from the visitors!

I agree OP - I am anti-social and don't want to be pounced on. I hate it in shops too, and will just walk out. Why don't people realise that you will ask if you need help?

Anyway, to return to the NT - I find most people don't approach you if you avoid eye contact. To be fair, a couple of times when they've nabbed us, they have been quite interesting. But I would just rather read the info cards they have in the rooms. I'm not that bothered about NT properties anyway, one is very like another (awaits accusations of being a cultural philistine etc) I like the grounds and the teashops!

However, I think it's interesting that a PP had a good experience in the Villa Borghese. I think that our museums are generally quite easy-going towards visitors but in Italy (especially one of the museums n Verona) we have been effectively chased around the museum and the room "monitors" give you a hard stare every time you go anywhere near an exhibit. It's not very enjoyable. We ended up leaving this particular museum early.

And in Germany they insisted that I put a very small bag in their left luggage (it had my passport in and we were flying that day). Despite explaining that (and the bag was really tiny) they wouldn't budge. So I waited outside with one friend while my husband and other friends went inside. So overfriendly NT room guides seem the least of the problems, really.

Someone mentioned not taking kids on a guided tour in NI - we went to Northern Ireland when ds was 2 and we went to one NT property that I think you could only see via a guided tour. We were a bit worried, but they said it would be fine - and fortunately he behaved for the 30 minutes or so.

And I HATE comic sans. It just feels patronising!

So much intellectual snobbery. Agree with this totally. Some people are coming across as really sneery. The NT needs people in each room. They do not have enough money to pay Phd holders to do that job. They rely on volunteers.

They just need to learn when not to speak.

but I think the default should be don't speak until you are spoken to.

Bloody hell, that sounds like some Lord of the manor talking about the chamber maid. Nothing has changed in those big houses, has it?
Except now it is some of the visitors treating the poor room guides like second class citizens rather than Lord Richie Rich.

Re John Soanes (not NT of course) you can wander as such but AFAIK they only allow a certain number of visitors at once and the guides are pretty indispensable as otherwise it can just seem like a collection of random (if pretty amazing) stuff. Context is vital. Plus, unlike other places you are very close to the artefacts and I would be watching people like a hawk personally. The guides are not like NT volunteers with a history hobby, the people who spoke to us were leading experts on art and antiquity. If you aren't the type of person to appreciate the detail they can add, or aren't in the mood that day, I honestly wouldn't bother with the place.

Ball that's an odd interpretation - have you not read the many, many posts where people clearly explain it's about social anxiety and awkwardness and just not wanting to chat to someone?

Puppy- well maybe it is the way it is worded then. Don't speak until you are spoken to sounds like the command of some Victorian Lord. It really does not sound as if the person has social anxiety and would rather not be approached. How is the guide supposed to know that? There are others who are quite happy to chat, everyone is different. But to word it in that way really does sound awful.

And have you read the post that said Fuck off Stickers are an excellent idea Is that really about social anxiety or just plain rude?

If you aren't the type of person to appreciate the detail they can add, or aren't in the mood that day, I honestly wouldn't bother with the place.

Do it PROPERLY or not at all. Lol.

(Museum professional here. A lot of you sound like chippy snobs)

Some inside knowledge here!

Volunteers are difficult. Some are brilliant, some not so much. Some bug you the moment you walk through a door, others do wait until you make eye contact. There is a good training programme, but there are some volunteers who have been there many years and managing them would take a Solomon. Furthermore, to hope that all guides would have extensive academic qualifications in the period in question rather than a hobby interest is rather too hopeful.

Re: making things more "kid friendly" - yes, there are trails and objects/areas of interest to children, but families are big visitors. It is easy to zone out of those things and focus on the more "intellectual" aspects if you so wish. And many, many visitors aren't interested in the deep cuts of history/archaeology anyway. They want a nice wander round and to go in the tea room. Most properties will offer curator-led tours if you want more detail.

Also, I sooo understand social anxiety. But no condition is an excuse for rudeness. A brief smile at a curator then head down or intent peering at a painting is quite adequate.

Sorry, I meant volunteer , not curator. Obviously the good people of MN would embrace a proper curator and not a stupid old pensioner volunteer.

If you do admit to being socially inept and anti-social and it makes you sad to be that way, it seems a good idea to try and improve it gradually by doing things like making small talk with NT volunteers?

Some things I found absolutely hideous when I was 15, or 25, but I pushed myself to do them by gradually putting myself slightly outside my comfort zone from time to time. Now I find those things fine - like approaching strangers at a networking event. I don't love doing it but I don't mind and am not bad at it. If you stay in your comfort zone things will never change.

This is Mumsnet. The consensus seems to be that no-one answers the door if someone turns up unexpectedly and the ideal holiday location is a villa in the middle of nowhere.

So it follows through quite logically that when visiting NT properties all people want to do is look around in peace without having to engage with Other People. Nothing at all to do with snobbery or the hired help knowing ones place.

CheeseToastie123 Wed 05-Jul-17 08:39:12
"If you aren't the type of person to appreciate the detail they can add, or aren't in the mood that day, I honestly wouldn't bother with the place.

Do it PROPERLY or not at all. Lol."

But who decides what's "properly"? Usually when I visit historic houses or churches I have a very specific goal (research interests), and it can be very difficult if you can't shake off a guide who insists on talking about what they think the house is about and won't listen when I try to explain that I'm doing something different. Somebody else might visit to soak up atmosphere for a novel or a stage play or a piece of music.

Isn't it a tiny bit arrogant for a museum professional to want to decide on my behalf what is a "proper" approach to their house?

The only thing that gets my goat is when someone talks about "our" house. I beg your pardon? Your house? You're a volunteer! Even if you are Lady Ponsonby Weatherby you are confined to the West Wing now and it's no longer your house since you passed it to the NT.

They know nothing, even, about his period apart from the obvious things anyone would know. They actually complain about academics who go and do conferences and talks there as "rather over-involved in their subject"

Ha! I suspect they've met me, or overheard me on a visit with friends or family, where I get going on my field of expertise ...

"Some people are coming across as really sneery. The NT needs people in each room. They do not have enough money to pay Phd holders to do that job. They rely on volunteers."

This is ABSOLUTELY true. They are room guards, essentially. It seems to me that the explanatory function has been kind of tacked on.

My problem is that there is often no alternative interpretation. You don't get printed room cards or tickets telling you, for example, the painter and title of a painting, the maker of a chair and its date etc. So you are heavily reliant either on the volunteers to read you out the screed from the laminated cards/lever arch file for each room OR on being able to grab a copy of said file for yourself. It means that you're faced with a choice: either you have to engage heavily with the volunteers, or you have to wander round in a state of vaguest incomprehension. I agree with PPs that English Heritage often do a better job with similar sites.

I don't mind the volunteers being there at all, in fact I'm grateful to them. What I mind is the lack of expert curation and proper interpretation that is accessible without asking them!! And the fact that the books and sheets that are provided are often about the family who acquired the things, rather than the things themselves. The kind of aristocratic-biographical approach (with a bit of social history thrown in below stairs) is really lacking, and often important details - like the fact that the whole pile was built on the backs of sugar plantation slaves - are neglected or thrust into the background, in a way that borders on the unethical.

Middle class Mumsnet life... got to love it... in the meantime....

weyhey - The thing that makes the "overinvolved academics" comment doubly offensive is the fact that DH and I are academics!

Thing is, for some of us, it's not snobbery. It's knowledge.

Not the UK, the US, but I had an experience with a guide in an historic house near DC - you could only do a guided tour, so had to stick with your docent. In the hall, she pointed to a series of prints and emphasised how important they were to the builder of the house, because they were of his home, Carlisle, in Scotland

I piped up (idiot that I am) and said, "Oh no, Carlisle is in England. I'm from round there and it's very important that it's not in Scotland. We have defences against those Scottish border reivers." (a joke that whizzed straight over her head)

She looked at me as if I had just landed from outer space, and said "No, Carlisle is in Scotland." I didn't push it, but just asked questions about the provenance of the prints, and how they were made. None of which could she answer.

So OK, she wasn't an art historian. But to treat an English visitor from north Cumbria as if she doesn't know her own history ... Hmmmm

The thing that makes the "overinvolved academics" comment doubly offensive is the fact that DH and I are academics!

Crikey - passive-aggressive or what?