to ask how you cope if you can't have children?

[ohbigdaddio]

Just that really...did you adopt? Or have you accepted it and has your life taken a new, fulfilling direction? Do you ever really get over it? Or are you still finding it difficult years later?

DH and I have been TTC for nearly a year and a half, got another negative pregnancy test result this morning, both feel very down and deflated and considering giving up. I feel really numb today and not sure what I want to do next.

Not sure we can cope with emotional highs and lows (well, mainly lows!) for much longer and it's all we think about.
Age is not on our side, I'm 38, approaching 39 so not really got time to have a break from it all. Next step would be IVF, obviously with no guarantees.

Would love to hear any positive thoughts on a child free life, especially if you really wanted children at one point.

I think the reason a lot of women who've had fertility problems post on these threads is that even after you've had a child you still think of yourself as infertile. It has a major psychological impact. I had a weird moment when someone said, 'so this is your third pregnancy?' and I realised that it didn't fit with my own mental image of myself at all. I now have two kids but the fertility struggles have shaped me. I haven't, and will never, forget being the childless one at Christmas or on holiday. So we still think of ourselves as one of you, even though we're not.

That's no excuse for the lack of tact in the miracle story posts. In fact it makes them inexplicable (I have no miracle story, I have no idea why I eventually got pregnant or why I hadn't given up).

Yes Solomon, still and always will feel like I fall into that category,despite having kids. I know I'm very lucky. However,that scars from all those years will always be there. A little scratch here and there and I can quickly remember what that grief and sadness feels like.

Op. I am childless not by choice.
However I now see it as a bonus.
We have friends at every stage of children from babies to being grandparents.
I don't feel I'm missing anything.
Society puts pressure on people to have children and so many films etc always have to have the miracle pregnancy as if having children is the only way to be happy.
It isn't.

Was one of the very few who were incredibly fortunate and IVF worked for, but am not going to patronise you with the "miracles happen" story.

However, the cycle that worked was our last ditch attempt and the one that we had decided to have so that we could draw a line under ttc and move on with our lives, no longer riding the rollercoaster of hope and despair.

We didn't expect it to work so in anticipation I had been working on building a childfree life and had genuinely come to a point of seeing it as an alternative path in life. Neither was second best, they were just different. One had a bundle of squidge. The other had the freedom to go backpacking at a month's notice, impromptu dirty weekends, evening classes, going to gigs, a dream house, being the fun auntie who spoiled nieces and nephews rotten.

I found Jodi Day's book "Rocking the Life Unexpected" helpful as well as making time for pottery classes, days hiking, spoiling myself with a good haircut and decent face creams (making the most of the body I hadn't yet ruined!) all really therapeutic.

There was also a period where I couldn't be around friends with children- especially if they were the type to only talk about their kids or always bring them along. It hurt too much and felt like a club I couldn't join. Instead I sought out other friends who were childfree and found there were loads!

Good luck, either path is equally fulfilling. Either path has its challenges x

No experience of childlessness, but do know several people who have adopted- some from childlessness, some to add to an existent family. Yes, it requires a special kind of openness and flexibility to deal with a child who may already have baggage, so it's not for everyone. But if you are that person, then that is definitely an option.

I really feel for every person who has spoken on this thread, the suffering and mental exhaustion in all of these posts is beyond sad. However once again someone has had to pop up and be cruel and nasty to the person who posted about secondary infertility.
Yes of course it is nowhere near as awful as the suffering described by the OP, we all know that. That poster would know that and maybe a secondary infertility thread would have been a better place for this. But why spend your time tapping away vitriol to spout at that person? I often wonder what these nasty pieces of work are like in real life.

Carmen, I don't really understand your post. All anybody has said is pretty much the same as you here:

Yes of course it is nowhere near as awful as the suffering described by the OP, we all know that. That poster would know that and maybe a secondary infertility thread would have been a better place for this.

The two aren't really comparable and posting about secondary infertility is insensitive on a thread about primary infertility.

We adopted after almost 10 years of TTC.

I was 27 when we started TTC and I was 36 when we brought our eldest home.

We went through , IUI , IVF , three operations to sort out issues I had and one pregnancy that ended in miscarriage. We really did go through hell.

We had a lot of amazing consolation holidays during that time and it was on one of those holidays that we decided it was time to move on with our lives.

18 months later we welcomed a beautiful 10 month old baby boy into our lives and have never been happier.

I'm too early in my own journey to say that I'm in the same position as you, OP - I've been trying for just under a year with three miscarriages in that time. The third one was certainly a blow, and made me think for the first time seriously about whether I might be incapable of having children and what that means to me.

Anyway, one thing I've really noticed in general culture and many of these posts is the idea that if you don't have children your life can still have meaning if you do something spectacular. You have to be a CEO or travel the world or dedicate your life to altruism and save the world. The thing is, that's not what most people's lives look like. I feel distinctly mediocre at my job and don't particularly feel I have the capacity to somehow become Mother Teresa, we have enough money but don't have the money for some sort of life of exotic travel and parties. I feel like most childless lives must be ordinary ones, but you tend to hear about the spectacular ones, as if that's the only 'acceptable' way to not have children - like you need a really, really good excuse.

I find this thread exasperating in that there are STILL women coming on peddling their success stories despite being told by numerous posters that they don't really fit in. The original OP did NOT ask for success stories for fucks sake. What's wrong with you all. Well meaning but unintentionally smug and HURTFUL. Get a grip and remember how you felt before you crossed to the other side of the fence.

Yes of course it is nowhere near as awful as the suffering described by the OP, we all know that. That poster would know that and maybe a secondary infertility thread would have been a better place for this. But why spend your time tapping away vitriol to spout at that person? I often wonder what these nasty pieces of work are like in real life.

I'm clearly being thick

Please can you explain to me where I'm going wrong

Thread is about how women have coped with being childless

Thread is not about the difficulty of being infertile

Thread is about how do women deal with facing or experiencing a childless future

Secondary infertility = experiencing the difficulty of infertility but not facing a childless future

It's not a thread about suffering. It's a thread about how to navigate life with involuntary childlessness

This thread is reinforcing to me how rare infertility is as most posters have actually conceived!!

Some practical tips for you if you decide to stop your ttc:

• don't expect everyone to understand, as you can see from this thread some people do and some people never will. Take love and support from those who do and smile benignly and change conversational topic with those who don't. People say all kinds of fucking stupid things. Avoid baby showers.

• have two versions of your truth ready for when people inevitably ask 'why no kids'. One brief and honest and kind, and one snippy and none of your business like - use interchangeably depending on the person and circumstances. Practise them.

• do you what have to do if you hurt. Avoid baby showers. Be kind to yourself.

• read, if you find it helpful, there are many good books and forums on this topic, and I suggest maybe starting them now. I found this one very helpful but there are others

www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Coping-Childlessness-Diane-Houghton/004131025X?tag=mumsnetforum-21

• find befriend and spend time with older child free women that you admire and identify things about them that you aspire to be. One of the hardest feelings of infertility to me was, if I'm not going to be a mother, what am I going to do? Who will I be in my 40s and 50s?. I luckily now have a few friends I can point to and think ok I could be like her and that would be bloody fantastic!

• did I mention avoid baby showers?

With love x

Firstly, that's pretty insensitive (I'm sure intentionally) thankgod. Please don't make struggling women feel even more isolated. Secondly, I think that's because it's Mumsnet, not a representative sample. It has good and active conception, miscarriage and infertility boards, so attracts quite a lot of women trying for children, but I imagine that it has relatively few members who have accepted they will never have children (although that might change if you stick entirely to unrelated boards like The Litter Tray - AIBU isn't one of those, though). Tbh it's not the easiest place if you're just struggling a bit - there are quite a lot of threads (like the gender disappointment ones) that remind you that most people take their ability to have children totally for granted, and the site itself can feel a bit inadvertently unfriendly. It felt like a particular kick in the teeth when I was posting on the miscarriage boards and I kept getting the banner saying 'could you be pregnant?' over and over again. Probably sodding not, given that I'm gushing blood!

Not meaning to be insensitive at all. I am in my 50s, infertile/childless and also exasperated by all the miracle stories and advice to have hope and keep going.

This thread is reinforcing to me how rare infertility is as most posters have actually conceived!!

this is a thread on MUMSnet. There's a significant number of non-parents on the site but by and large, yes, the majority of responses will be from mothers, whether biological, adoptive, step-parents, etc. That doesn't mean infertility itself is 'rare' - something like 20% of women over 45 don't have children.

MargaretCavendish I know exactly what you mean about the prevailing media idea that if you don't have kids you either have to be an intrepid world traveller or devote your life to Good Works. Not having to finance education and a second social life frees up a certain amount of cash, but not to the extent some parents imagine. I know several childless women who have spent their additional resources - mental and financial - on basically having a more rounded life; they enjoy their relationships, read newspapers, they travel a little more, they make time for friends, they garden or take classes or volunteer, they plant themselves firmly in their reality. Not world-changing stuff but certainly more than enough to make them feel they're living a whole life and not simply marking time till death because they're not bringing up a child.

Anyway, one thing I've really noticed in general culture and many of these posts is the idea that if you don't have children your life can still have meaning if you do something spectacular. You have to be a CEO or travel the world or dedicate your life to altruism and save the world. The thing is, that's not what most people's lives look like. I feel distinctly mediocre at my job and don't particularly feel I have the capacity to somehow become Mother Teresa, we have enough money but don't have the money for some sort of life of exotic travel and parties. I feel like most childless lives must be ordinary ones, but you tend to hear about the spectacular ones, as if that's the only 'acceptable' way to not have children - like you need a really, really good excuse.

Yes I've also noticed this, the other side being that many mothers not only envy a child free existence but have this often vocalised idea that if I didn't have this lot I'd be off saving dolphins/CEO /swimming the channel/working for Fererro Rocher

No mate you probably (like me) would still be sat round eating doritos and watching Love Island and occasionally thinking about how you really ought to switch energy providers...

Oh, I'm really sorry, then, thankgod - I now realise that I obviously misread the tone of your comment. Sorry.

Oh, absolutely chesty. It reminds me a bit of when I used to do well at school and occasionally got comments of 'I'd have done better than you if I'd worked harder'. Ok, thanks for pointing out how hypothetical you beats actual me hands down. That's really useful for us both.

After around 7 years ttc I had a false positive on a pg test. It opened up a whole world of grief in me and I had to take some time off work to process it all. This was a year ago and in hindsight was honestly the best thing that could have happened to me at that time. I was so ready to give up ttc but didn't have an outlet for my grief. That little line on a stick that should have not even been there opened up something in me and I hit rock bottom for a few days.
Slowly I began to heal and have actively avoided anything ttc related ever since. I feel better, so much so that at Christmas we began our adoption journey and even though we don't have a match yet it's already the best thing we've ever done. My child will make me glad I'm infertile as a birth child would have prevented me going down this path.
We have enjoyed the adoption process, it is not hard or intrusive. Finding a match might be more difficult but I feel open, positive and excited. I never had any of those feelings about ttc.

Another part of this (sorry for the multiple posts) is that anyone with fertility problems is supposed to be prepared to become the best mother ever. I've had a few 'but do you really want kids' and, as people have said, this expectation that the subfertile will of course have the aptitude and desire to adopt. If I'd got knocked up first go (and it had stuck) no one would be questioning me now on whether it's what I really want or, in the case of one well meaning but clueless friend, asking whether I 'only want it so much because I can't have it' (two days after miscarriage two).

Anyway, one thing I've really noticed in general culture and many of these posts is the idea that if you don't have children your life can still have meaning if you do something spectacular.

This is very very insightful, and is helping me to crystallise something I have kind of hovered around but haven't properly brought out into consciousness. I think there is a pressure for "legacy" for many people - a kind of existential pressure. Children are a kind of autocomplete on that pressure, but when you can't have them, there is suddenly a sense of life as a kind of currency that you have to invest well. I actually think that maybe, in both cases (children v childless) it's not a helpful way of thinking. We can't control what we leave behind - we can't control children as they become their own people, and we can't control reception of our work. Perhaps thinking less about this monolithic thing we leave, and more about being in the present in the kindest and most fulfilling way we can would be helpful for everyone.

Thanks for sharing - this has been a really helpful morning of Mumsnet reading for me. It's actually really nice to have a thread where I feel like I can explore some of the really complicated and conflicted feelings I have not been able to bring to light of day.

Agree strongly about those comments about the expectation that if you don't have children you then must be wealthy, amazing holidays, long lie ins, plus a high flying career. Of course there are some positives for many people in terms of more time, focus and money, but many child free people may have their own health problems, be carers for parents or others, or have other financial or career restrictions. Child free life is not automatically carefree. Equally, it can help not to put the pressure on yourself that you have to overachieve in order to compensate in some way. It's ok to watch love island and eat Doritos!

Interesting thread, OP. DH & I can't have our own biological children and we found this out about 14 years ago. Many of the experiences outlined above resonated very much with me: the day after we'd got the news that DH was 100% infertile, my DB came up to me in a panic that his GF was unexpectedly pregnant - DN was our parents' 1st grandchild. We had all the 'eat unicorn testicles', 'just relax', 'you can adopt' shite from people until one memorable evening out with friends when DH lost his temper, stood up, and shouted 'none of this stuff will work because I'm a complete JAFFA', which whilst somewhat dramatic, did stop that conversation dead in its track from then on

We are now in our 40s and life is good. One thing infertility makes you explore is just how much you actually want to be a parent. We realised that if we'd been able, we would have liked to have had children and would have done, but we were neither of us filled with the burning urge to parent which would see us pursuing IVF or adoption. No criticism of those who do, but it just wasn't for us. I consider ourselves very lucky in fact that the decision was so very much out of our hands and we didn't then face a whole set of new dilemmas. And that we both felt the same - it would have been a lot worse if one of us wanted to pursue adoption and the other didn't, IYSWIM.

We were also determined that it wouldn't define us for the rest of our lives. Life would be just as good, just different. So we made career and house moves we would not have considered had we had children. We have been able to spend time as we've wanted to, without the sense of filling time until we die. We have a beloved rescue dog, and I'm leaving a legacy in the form of a garden I'm creating (over years!) which will be there long after I've gone, plus the memories we leave with others of the good times we've hosted here. I'm in my late 40s and will have retired by 50. I don't think it's a coincidence either that at least 50% of our friends are also childfree. Whether that's by choice or not I've never asked, because that's not why we're friends. But it does mean that last minute get togethers/long weekends are a lot easier, as no one has any school holidays to work around (apart from a couple of teacher friends).

There was a similar thread on the infertility board some while back and the OP there was coming to the point where she wanted to stop TTC and was facing the same 'you must be a CEO or save whales or whatever' that childless people face. I said then that I always think of that view like those old Tampax ads from the 80s. Yes, if you want you can go rollerskating in tight white shorts on your period, but most people don't. They just get on with it.

The only time I've lost my shit with people is with those who post bunches of flowers on Mothers' Day 'for those who aren't mothers. Thinking of you hun' or similar. ODFOD with your patronising blooms.

expectation that if you don't have children you then must be wealthy, amazing holidays, long lie ins, plus a high flying career.

Amen to that. I have none of these things and my life is far from carefree, thanks to issues wholly unrelated to our lack of children.