to ask how you cope if you can't have children?

[ohbigdaddio]

Just that really...did you adopt? Or have you accepted it and has your life taken a new, fulfilling direction? Do you ever really get over it? Or are you still finding it difficult years later?

DH and I have been TTC for nearly a year and a half, got another negative pregnancy test result this morning, both feel very down and deflated and considering giving up. I feel really numb today and not sure what I want to do next.

Not sure we can cope with emotional highs and lows (well, mainly lows!) for much longer and it's all we think about.
Age is not on our side, I'm 38, approaching 39 so not really got time to have a break from it all. Next step would be IVF, obviously with no guarantees.

Would love to hear any positive thoughts on a child free life, especially if you really wanted children at one point.

My dog is a bit of a baby substitute its not the same as a baby but it's very satisfying to that need for something to look after and love. I'm not saying a dog can replace a baby, but it does bring a lot of joy to my life and I feel taking good care of the dog is worthwhile in a small way

Are we just ignoring this insanity? Probably for the best.

And yes...
Relax, it will happen.
4-6 sessions of reflexology and it will happen.
I know exactly how you feel I am struggling to conceive a second.
Why don't you just adopt?
When you're a mum you'll understand.
We struggled to conceive and then our miracle baby came along, I'm sure it will happen for you too.

But I think dogs as a baby subsitute has got to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

Lucy I'm so glad you have such a well worked out and helpful plan for those of us who are barren, based on what you WOULD have done if you hadn't been lucky enough to conceive naturally


How many cycles would you have done with your own eggs and sperm? 3? 5? 7? I know many women who've done this many before giving up on OE/OS. I've done 4 cycles and countless investigations and surgeries, and spent £40,000 thus far. Many spend many many more on their treatment


OK so you decide to move on to donor. How do you know whither problem is with the seed or the soil? Tests can't tell in most cases, you know. Do you for for donor egg or donor sperm? Or both? If you can't get a known donor do you go UK or abroad? Are you prepared to have ID release so your child can track down their genetic parent at 18 as in the UK? Or go abroad for completely anonymous donation? If you are successful do you tell the child or not? What if they need to know about their origins for medical reasons?


How many donor egg or sperm cycles do you do? What other kinds of treatments are you prepared to try along the way? Would you take a drug like Humira even though it can be cytotoxic, because it's helped some women conceive and some clinics insist it's the key to success? When do you move on from DE / DS to DD (double donor)? How much will you put yourself through and how much can you afford? Do you have a job at this point because of all the treatment you're having?


When do you decide to move on to surrogacy? How much are you willing to spend on treatment to get to that point? When do you decide it's the uterine environment and not the embryo? How do you decide whether to do OE in a surrogate or DE in a surrogate? Will you do GS (gestational surrogacy) or TS (traditional surrogacy)? Will you do it in the UK where you may wait years for a match and have no legal protection and the surrogate can legally keep the baby and you have absolutely no rights at all - for a cost of around £15,000+ (plus IVF if you're doing GS)


Do you go to Ukraine or Georgia and pay around £40,000 to exploit a financially desperate woman and have to move over there for 3 months when the baby is born before you can bring the baby back to the UK?


Do you go to the US where you can get pre birth orders and have legally binding surrogacy agreements - at a cost of £150,000 - 200,000


(the latter is where we are BTW)


I assume you've started TTC in your 20s so by the time you've been through all the stages in your roadmap you're not too old to adopt?


I know plenty of women on forums who have been doing treatment for 10-15 years plus. One did so for 20 years before she had a baby


Oh and presumably you have a guarantee that your marriage will survive the strain of all this. Many, many don't.


Your plan is so well worked out I would love to know more. You seem such an expert perhaps you can guide me.

I think some of the posts on here indicate the insensitivity that childless women have to put up with in real life. A pushing aside of the issue, an assumption that women with children have more of a 'right' to comment on anything child related that childless women, a tactless inability to understand that sometimes people do not want to hear about your children because in certain situations and at certain times it is greatly upsetting. And, of course, the parent who just cannot help placing their child at the centre of everything, hijacking every situation regardless of who is involved.

Sorry if this post sounds bitter, but sometimes it is such a relief to know that there are people out there who feel the way you do and that your feelings are valid. This thread could have provided so much comfort and support, but instead there are posters determined to push in and talk about themselves and how they became pregnant.

"My dog is a bit of a baby substitute its not the same as a baby but it's very satisfying to that need for something to look after and love. I'm not saying a dog can replace a baby, but it does bring a lot of joy to my life and I feel taking good care of the dog is worthwhile in a small way"

"Are we just ignoring this insanity? Probably for the best."

I am childless and have dogs. I don't consider dogs to be 'baby substitutes', but I wanted to respond to the 'insanity' comment here because for me, caring for animals has been one of the things that's given my life purpose and brought me a lot of joy (as well as heartbreak), and probably the main thing that's helped me cope.

Our dogs have all been rescues, either on a foster or permanent basis, some of whom would have been put down or spent the rest of their lives in a kennel otherwise. And not having children has meant we could take in the difficult-to-home ones, the strays with unknown backgrounds, the ones with a few months to live, the nervous, abused ones, who wouldn't have been able to go to a home with children. I've started to be able to see our child-free home as a blessing, a sanctuary not an empty shell.

With my last dog, who we sadly lost earlier in the year (an abuse case who never entirely trusted anyone but me), I remember one occasion being in the park on a nice day, with lots of families and children playing, which normally would have been difficult for me. I remember getting down to put his lead on, and give him a bit of reassurance amid all the commotion, and him just looking into my eyes with that steady, trusting look that he never gave to anyone but me, and giving my face a little lick. And in that moment I remember thinking, suddenly, clearly, 'I wouldn't swap you for all the children in the world'. And it was true, and still is. It's still painful at times, but since that moment I've felt a genuine peace with and acceptance of my childlessness.

Maybe that's 'insanity' (quite possible as actually mental health-related issues are among the reasons I haven't been able to have children), but the OP asked how people cope, and, for me, this is how.

The problem is not those who have quite reasonably pointed out that sometimes things do turn out OK but those who have persisted ( and been quite rude) to say there is no misery like theirs. There are threads on here on secondary infertility and the agony is just as bad, if not worse because for a woman who wants a baby not to be able to have one is always awful. Some people do find that helping animals, especially rescue animals is a help, we call ourselves "mummy" and some people call them fur babies. It might sound pathetic but it is true. I know two couples who do not have children who say their dogs are child substitutes.
I was never very happy about my colleague who got into a big strop if someone brought a baby in, announced a pregnancy or even talked about their adult or teenaged children. All this when other people in this large organisation were going through messy divorces or having cancer treatment and didn't expect everyone else's life to stop.
When I read this thread to begin with I noticed the words "did you adopt?" and thought my decision to try adoption when I was having trouble conceiving might be pertinent, but no, my years of anguish and desperation were not good enough for the "max misery" brigade.
This is a public internet forum, "misery Police" are not the thread monitors. It has now reached the point where all suggestions about not giving up as an option are being derided and rubbished. I would never accepted a child free life, or my little family being incomplete with one child already upset he did not have a sibling like his friends ( more misery there) You don't have to spend millions, there are many children waiting for adoption and in my time you could adopt from abroad if it had to be a baby. it would have been nicer on this thread if those with fertility problems had come together to discuss it from all prespectives, but once again there is a strident minority of posters who will not tolerate anything but their views.
I'm sure if one of us were to post on a thread about buying a new Ford "actually why don't you try a Toyota" it would widen the discussion and be helpful. Fortunately my very touchy colleague has left the business now, if she was still here having read this thread I'd probably tell her to grow up.

blackbetha that is the sweetest thing.

And, the poster who said:
I'm not saying a dog can replace a baby, but it does bring a lot of joy to my life and I feel taking good care of the dog is worthwhile in a small way is not crazy. Anyone who suggested that she might be has clearly never loved a dog.

We've had a dog for a couple of months - I nearly talked about it in my original post as getting him was part of coming to terms with it all - he's NOT a substitute for a baby and he never will be BUT I love having him in my life and as batshit crazy as it sounds - he is a reason for getting up every day and just getting on with it.

Blackbetha - hear hear.

I think some of the posts on here indicate the insensitivity that childless women have to put up with in real life.

^^This. My bingo card is almost full now, tbh......I'm just waiting for the 'a woman's main role in life is to be a mother', which I had from DH's aunt, or 'why don't you just sleep with BIL', which I had from MIL's friend, and then I'll have a full house.

Lol ExConstance how easy for you to say with your two birth children
Blimey, another infertility thread gets railroaded by the smug mummies. I feel so sorry for your ex colleague, my heart goes out to her.

Yes, fortunately OK now, but 4 years with numerous calls to the Samaritans and miscarriage association. two miscarriages, constantly in tears, I felt I'd failed my husband and my son, marriage not good, utterly deranged with it all, oh yes, it was a total doddle. I'm sorry my misery wasn't good enough for you Bitchfromhell . One thing I never did though was take it in to work, that isn't fair on anyone else.

ExConstance I don't event know where to start with your post.

It would be appropriate for people to post 'don't give up, I had a miracle pregnancy and a happy ending' stories IF the op had asked for peoples miracle pregnancy stories to give her hope.

But she didn't.

OP asked to hear from people who managed to build a life for themselves having not been able to have a biological child - whether that's through adoption, travel, work etc. Not how have they coped with only having one child.

I don't always agree with the grief hierarchy and everyone has their own issues to deal with, but that's not appropriate in this particular thread, which is not in any way about struggling to have a second child (again, not denying the pain of that situation but it's just not relevant for this discussion).

Also, you've actually proved lots of people's points on here with you 'why don't you just adopt' line. Have you adopted? Have you done any actual investigation into how it works or what it entails?

So in summary, no, it is not helpful to post about buying a fucking Toyota when someone has specifically asked to hear about a Ford .

Margaret

We get the message ! No one who hasn't experienced this should post here . Or offer trite alternatives adopt! or do something worthy

I have in fact learnt from this thread (despite you bollocking everyone )

You 10000% have the right to express your anger (frustration) but bear in mind that if people feel scared and attacked they might not learn , or listen so well

MN teaches me a lot and there are definitely some lessons in how to be sensitive in this thread when encountering this issue

Cross posted exConstance I'm sorry for your miscarriages, that's a terrible thing to go through (I know from experience).

I must admit I've always managed to keep a lid on my issues at work, but not everyone is the same - some people deal with divorce ok, others fall apart, some are able to 'cope' with terminal illness or bereavement, others can't. Seems unfair to tar all infertile women with the same brush. You've probably met more than woman dealing with this in private who didn't say anything so you'd never know.

Is your post supposed to make me feel guilty? It's a bit of a shame that you needed to be 'bollocked' to develop some basic human empathy, but if you have in fact learnt to be a bit more sensitive towards fertile women then I'm pretty happy about that, actually.

I did begin to pursue adoption. We had friends who had adopted a Chinese daughter ( they went on to adopt a second child from abroad) and we contacted the agency they used and had paid the fee for the Social Services procedures, which were different in those days. You could not adopt if you were still pursuing a child of your own, so we did not proceed much further. We are actively considering adopting again at the present time, but now our children are grown up it would be older children.

Also, weren't you going to ask for your comment to be deleted and fuck off from the thread?

I sit opposite one (soon to be 2) women who struggle to conceive and this thread is actually useful

In simple terms listen , emphasise , and STFU !

No dogs no reflexology no you could adopt no get a dog no it happened to my friend

*infertile women, obviously

exConstance it's not about your misery not being good enough. You're not listening, it's about it being different to. That's the point. Your experiences of secondary infertility are inappropriate on a "how do I cope with infertility" thread. You a trying to trump the experiences of the childless with your mc and marriage story when you've ended up with two kids.
Do you have any idea how galling that is for those of us who have been through all of those experiences and remain childless.
I'm not trying to infer that wasn't an awful time for you but it is different to this.
As for saying you would just have adopted if you hadn't conceived your second is just delusional. There are approximately 5 families waiting for each child that gets a placement order atm. And that's if you pass the eligibility criteria and make it through assessment intact.

I did get my comment deleted .

I don't wish to further engage with you , and I am sure the feeling is mutual

but I will stay here as there is a lot to be learnt and I find what most people are saying is educational and will help me avoid making crass and inapprooriate comments in the future .

We tried for many years, OP and the lows were so low. I just couldn't bear another negative pregnancy test or worse when my period 'teased' me by being a few days late. Eventually we decided that whatever happened being unable to fall pregnant would be a positive. Whether we adopted and changed a child's life for the better or whether we did something brilliant for ourselves like a new business and lived a fab childfree life the state of sadness and loss wasn't going to define us.
We actually adopted in the end and I wouldn't have changed our path for the world.
Good luck, op. You'll get it right for you one way or another.

There is a huge difference between someone who has never experienced infertility saying (and I'm paraphrasing), 'why not get a dog to fill the void?' and someone who has been through it, saying 'this is what I found helpful'.

I have a dog and a cat that I love dearly, however, I personally find the suggestion that a pet could, in any way fill the void left by infertility, insulting and incredibly trite and patronising - especially if that suggestion is made by someone who hasn't been through it. In fact, I'd have had to walk away before I either cried or shouted at them.

I haven't contributed to the thread up to now because we adopted and that isn't what the OP was asking about, but the raft of completely inappropriate and poorly thought through comments on here are like a 'how not to' book.

@stopfuckingshoutingatme a genuine thank you for listening - I don't expect anyone who hasn't been through infertility to understand what it's like, but I've always really really appreciated those who've been supportive

What has really really helped me, FWIW

• exactly as you say - be a good listener. Don't feel the need to offer well meant but unhelpful advice - it's OK to not know what to say. Some of the most helpful responses when I've been going through the darkest times have been 'I don't know what to say, I'm so sorry'. And 'I'm so sorry, I know I can't understand what you must be going through, how can I best support you?'. Other people's experiences aren't helpful or relevant - but just being a listener makes the world of difference

• try to understand that everyday life can be very difficult at times. I don't expect the world to stop just because I can't have children and I find certain situations incredibly emotionally difficult. Sensitivity does go a long way. I don't expect someone not to bring their baby into the office just because it might be upsetting for me. But please do try to understand that if I try to distance myself from the situation, it's nothing personal.

It's meant a huge amount when friends have been understanding about the fact that certain situations can be very difficult while it's so raw. When I've said I'm really sorry but I just can't face coming to a baby shower or family BBQ where everyone else is with their happy families and I'm recovering from a failed cycle, and I just can't face it, their understanding has meant the world. When they've said they will be here for me when I'm ready, that's meant the world. I don't expect them to change their lives now they're centred around their kids on my account - of course not!! But it's appreciated when they don't get offended if I need to remove myself from these situations because it's just too upsetting

I don't expect people not to post baby photos on FB - the fact I find that difficult is my problem not theirs. I can choose not to look. But it's been upsetting when friends have bombarded me with baby photos on WhatsApp in private messages. I'm so so happy for them but sad for me. It's easier for me to be a supportive friend if they're not ramming their baby photos down my throat so I can't escape.

I've massively appreciated it when a friend has given me a private heads up before they post a pregnancy or birth announcement on FB, so I don't feel ambushed.

The OP asked specifically about adoption, dailyshite in the first line of her original post.

We TTC for 2 years and knew that IVF was our next step. Having seen friends struggle with the heartbreaking cycle of disappointment, we decided against moving onto that next step. Instead, we decided to adopt. We went to the information evening in February and our beautiful son came home in November and he has made our family complete. Despite all the hard work with this often emotional process, adoption was best for us. I do however understand its not for everyone. Good luck on your journey.