To ask if you decided not to vaccinate your children

[Mintpepper]

Do you regret it? Did they catch any of the diseases that they could have been vaccinated for and what was the outcome?

And anyone who did get their children vaccinated - did they catch any of the diseases anyway? And do you regret vaccinating for any reason?

This isn't intended to start a debate for or against vaccination generally as that's been done many times, I'm more just interested in your personal experiences if you'd be willing to share them. Thank you.

Also OP I get that you are simply trying to find out people's experiences on this, but to what end? What you are going to find out is ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. You might want to follow science (ACTUAL EVIDENCE) on this one.

Even asking the question is of course going to get people's backs up, not least because it shows an unawareness of your own privilege - many children die from the diseases we vaccinate against in developing countries because their parents don't get the choice you do. And many parents reading this won't have the choice either - their children have conditions which mean they are unable to have the vaccines and they depend on herd immunity to stay safe. It's a hot button topic I think you know is going to set people off no matter what your intentions.

Refilona, your children would be unvaccinated - that means that they could also potentially contract the diseases (everyone else is not vaccinated - yours probably wouldn't be the only ones who 'couldn't' be vaccinated not to mention the adults who haven't been vaccinated and the fact that vaccines are not 100% effective anyway) and pass them on to sick children/babies too young to be vaccinated. See? Or do you think that only children are vaccinated for 'not good enough reasons' are capable of carrying diseases and passing them on?

So you wouldn't listen to your pediatrician unless they had kids?

Correction - Or do you think that only children who are unvaccinated for 'not good enough reasons' are capable of carrying diseases and passing them on?

"As a biochemist with a PhD in medicine I think I'm qualified to have an opinion yes"

Oh goody. In your expert opinion, then, what exactly is the benefit to a baby of being vaccinated against rubella?

And if it is not in that baby's interest to be vaccinated at that time against that particular disease, how do you ethically justify advocating a medical procedure on a baby that carries a small risk but is for someone else's benefit?

"
So you wouldn't listen to your pediatrician unless they had kids?"

Nope, I think what is being said that when you have kids, particularly if one is unwell, then it may change your views on vaccination.

Whether my pead/GP has kids or not doesn't bother me - they share information with me, not force it upon me. Thankfully, we agree on the vaccination front.

No, anyone with a biological sciences background can do research for a PhD in medicine. In my case I specialised in CML.
The WHO recommends vaccinations. Some experts are for mandatory vaccinations, some against. In Italy it was made compulsory, for example. I agree with that. That is all.

Bumbleymummy I am not sure why you don't understand herd immunity but I guess we can agree to disagree now.

Have a good evening guys.

Surely you don't need to vaccinate when you could simply extract the energy from a prawn using a special machine designed for that exact purpose?
(Anyone remember that thread?!)

Refilona. I understand herd immunity thanks. You don't seem to understand that your children would fall into the category of 'unvaccinated children' that you fear so much.

Night.

My lad's had all the free vaccines and has just had the Men B privately and will be getting the HPV next.

I thank my lucky stars we live in this country with the NHS, which spends money it doesn't have on vaccinations for children, because they prevent debilitating and life-threatening diseases. I'm bloody glad I earn enough to pay for the extras too.

For those of you banging on about TB presumably you know that the vaccine is only offered in certain high risk areas of the UK. Kind of blows herd immunity out of the water. Ironically it's one of the ones I would have been happiest for my DC to have.

You specifically said that you wanted compulsory vaccination; this is not preferred by the WHO. As I have said several times now.

Italy hasn't made it compulsory - it's made it compulsory for those children who need to attend state-run schools; not the wealthy, not the romany population (ie. the population with the highest outbreaks of preventable illnesses), not children who are homeschooled at usually attend way more children's clubs and societies than children in schools.

(And from my understanding of this, it's only preschool and nursery the kids can't attend; they can join the schools in later years although the parents will pay a fine).

If your kid can't have a vaccination for medical reasons - then they won't be allowed to mix with other non-vaccinated children.

"The compulsory vaccinations may only be omitted or deferred in cases of proven danger to the health of the child, when specific clinical conditions, duly documented, are present. (Le Novità del Decreto Legge sui Vaccini , supra.) Children who have not been vaccinated must be kept only in classrooms with other non-immunized children. (Id.) School authorities must report the presence of non-vaccinated students to health authorities. (Id.)"

My youngest child (4) has not had any of her vaccinations. Her older brother was vaccine damaged. I took him into the surgery 4 his injections a happy, smiling, rolling over bright 5 month old. The next morning it was like he was a different child. No smiles, no eye contact, he went on to have seizures & was diagnosed with a type of epilepsy called infantile spasms (west syndrome). His neurologist at GOSH says his vaccinations were more than likely the trigger. I have no doubts that it was. That being said I still feel children should be vaccinated & want to get my daughter done before she starts school, in part to protect her brother. I just can't bring myself to do it.

My stepdad had diphtheria when he was 4, almost died.
DH had measles as a baby, he was very poorly and briefly hospitalised
Family friend's son had mumps as a child, he became sterile as a result
When I was born another woman in the maternity ward had a seriously ill baby who was blind and possibly deaf, probable cause was rubella in pregnancy.

VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN!

My mother didn't get me vaccinated for whooping cough, I caught it as a baby and was hospitalised, it was touch and go. So I certainly regret her decision and so does she.

My son is fully vaccinated and has never caught anything.

No answer to my question, Refilona? I didn't think so

I had all vaccines and still caught measles and rubella. But I didn't suffer too badly with either and part of that I'm sure was being vaccinated first. Not all vaccines take and they he'll the body fight against the diseases.

My DDs have had all vaccines and I don't regret it. The last set DD2 cried, was given a cheese string, and forgot all about it! Reminds me to book her in for her next set (not UK so works a bit differently) of vaccinations. I'll have to check her book.

The only vaccine DD1 hasn't had is chicken pox but she's had the pox now so doesn't need it apparently. Dd2 has had the pox but is getting the vaccine as she was only 4mo when she caught it.

I'll admit I haven't read the full thread. But for my tuppance worth...

I have not vaccinated my children. I am not an anti or a pro. But for me it was not the right thing to do. I have very little trust in the medical/pharmaceutical relationship.

But it, OP, is totally your decision, having done the research both anecdotally, historically and scientifically.

Chit, thanks for putting my immunocompromised life at risk. Is that really who you are? Not about personal choice.

Mil refused to vaccinate dh, but he got himself vaccinated when he became an adult.
So, whereas he was compromised throughout childhood by her stupid decision not to vaccinate, it was a waste of time in the end because he got himself vaccinated!

I'm reeling from the post that said that because there's no direct benefit to the baby of being immunised against rubella why would anybody do it? What about the benefit to pregnant women, including perhaps the baby's own mother, of not contracting rubella which could have catastrophic consequences for their unborn child? What about the baby herself when grown up, in case she came in contact with rubella while pregnant? I don't think I've ever seen anything so PFB in my life. It is not in the interests of society as a whole (and we're all part of society) for pregnant women to get rubella. That's the point.

"Unbelievable. We are being lectured on what to do with our children by someone who has none, no idea whatsoever in fact about making health decisions for one's baby. Such is the state of MN at present hmm"

Sadly, I think this statement sums up the state of the world at the moment. Who cares about experts, people who have spent years studying and researching and finding out everything they can about childhood immunization? I know more than they do because I've got a baby and my "mother's intuition" trumps a doctorate. So also Climate Change. The Economy. And practically everything else.

It's not just about you and your baby and personal choice. If you don't get that, you are in the WRONG .

I already said upthread that I'm generally in favour of vaccination, although we spread them out now and say 'no thanks' to things like rotavirus and the flu spray. I have to agree though that enforced vaccination is ethically indefensible, because you are forcing a person, usually a baby, to undergo a medical procedure that carries risks which cannot be absolutely known ahead of time. By the time a child has had a bad reaction, the damage is done.

There are also many other issues that have been touched on in this thread, such as the fact that most susceptible people are actually adults (which has a massive impact in herd immunity), vaccines wear off more quickly than disease-mediated immunity in general (see the current problems with Mumps), and that the medical profession is often reluctant to link problems with vaccines, at least 'officially'. (This same phenomenon has been in the news recently with mesh implants, with many patients being told their chronic pain couldn't possibly be related to the implants - if medics won't acknowledge the link you cannot possibly gather accurate statistics about the levels of side effects and therefore risks of a procedure).

There is also an entire field into non-specific vaccine reactions, published in peer reviewed journals, which indicates that vaccines impact the immune system in a wider sense than providing protection against a particular disease. Sometimes this is for the better, sometimes it weakens the immune system, but it seems that the schedule (the order they're given and what's given together) probably also affects the immune system in general. This isn't currently considered in our schedule at all, which is decided primarily around logistical issues.

The UK, without compulsory vaccination, also has some of the best vaccine coverage in the world with uptakes routinely very high. People do in general trust what the NHS tells them. Eroding that trust by setting up conflict is risky. Rates are actually lower in places with compulsory vaccination, perhaps because vaccines are scrutinised more carefully in these contexts.

For all of these reasons I think compulsory vaccination would be a mistake, and I'd be horrified if I was forced to give my baby a treatment that I didn't believe was in their best interests (and not all vaccines are on the schedule to protect children from killer diseases - some are for the protection of others, some are about reducing costs to the NHS).

Excellent post, Y0uCannot - far too rational for Mumsnet! I'm immunocomprised and prefer to be sensible about who I interact with rather than shouting at strangers about vaccines.