To wonder why US dramas fetishise workolism?...

[coconuttella]

... Grey's Anatomy, West Wing, Suits... I could go on, but all seem to worship at the altar of the all-consuming career.

Dog, from my understanding yes 15 days would be what you would get from a company with 'good benefits', also some of them roll sick and holiday leave into one allowance or have 5 days max sick leave a year, after that you are unpaid so big issues with people dragging themselves in sick.

I'm a lawyer in the US, and sadly that's just how it is here. I have three weeks of vacation a year, and I don't use it all. Taking two weeks at a time would be hugely frowned upon. I'm sure they would let me do it, but it would reflect on me poorly and I'd be expected to work while I was out. I don't get any time off over the holidays except the actual day (Christmas day, for example). I don't get any sick time...but I can work from home without much trouble (in fact, I work from home 1x a week since returning from mat leave...I took 19 weeks off - 12 paid - and that was considered a ridiculously long and generous leave). I don't have to ask for permission to be out of the office for personal matters (doctors appointments, etc) as long as my work is getting done.

Basically, there is almost no excuse ever for not getting the work done, and the work never stops. I have flexibility, but that means I'm expected to respond and attend to work around the clock, 24/7, while on vacation, over the holidays, etc.

Doesn't sound much fun.

I can see there's a cultural bias against not having a job (though I know there are SAHPs aplenty) and also the health insurance thing motivates people to stay in employment. So the scenario I described, which I'm guessing is similar to the poster upthread whose mother retired early to general chagrin, is unusual. But it sounds like it's not that unusual for people to think I need $700 a month or whatever and I can get that from 22 hours work so I'm doing that? Particularly once they get older.

The thing is, Dog, being entirely out of employment long-term if you suddenly find you need it again. You put yourself at extreme disadvantage by doing so at such a young age with life expectancies on the rise, especially in the US. Non-employment sources of income are thin on the ground there, particularly because the tax structure discourages such when you are relatively young. Places with very cheap cost of living are often quite economically deprived, too. And yy, you still need health insurance.

I agree, user, it's just how it is there. I worked as a legal secretary and then a paralegal for years, the hours were long, especially in litigation, hence, I moved to the financial/legal compliance in securities sector, but still, long hours and the attorneys were expected to be available pretty much all the time.

'But it sounds like it's not that unusual for people to think I need $700 a month or whatever and I can get that from 22 hours work so I'm doing that? Particularly once they get older.'

Yes, very common for people to top up their income or even their pension with part-time work. University has to be paid upfront, too, so people often work to assist their children at uni.

I know lots of people who have more than 15 days off, but it's true they are more senior. By the time DH retired a few years ago, he had 5 weeks per year, and as he was in the financial industry, he was required to take at least some of it periodically (it's an anti-fraud regulatory requirement).

I think that one thing that is important to understand is that when the culture is different, attitudes are different. I have known very few people who actually hate their jobs, and many who are really happy in what they do. People like to work; most actually enjoy it.

DH and I have always had fairly intense time consuming jobs, but we also had flexibility to make time for family during the work day. We never missed a single school event because of work while our children were young. Also, generally speaking, children don't go to bed nearly as early in the US as they do in the UK. So we spent time with them in the evening as well and always ate together. We took one longish family vacation in the summer and lots of short breaks as well. (We live in Florida and did not have to go far for things to do that the whole family enjoyed.)

I'm well past retirement age (just turned 70) and still working because I love what I do. I have cut back to part-time, similar to what KickAss described in an earlier post (thought not in teaching). I hope to keep on going for a few more years.

Also, an observation about Suits: they may be staying late at the office, but they are often not working. They are plotting, planning to plot, de-briefing plots, and doing lots of chit chat in between long swaths of swanning around in designer clothes.

That makes sense. I can see that it would be important to have a lot of part time work available for people in their 50s and beyond if they've spent a lot of their working lives doing really long hours. I think it'd be the health insurance that would keep me going.

I was under the impression US pension income was more flexible and easily accessible though? I deal with people who have 401k accounts and similar in my work, and I know they can be drawn whenever. Obviously there's huge swatches of poor who'd never have much in theirs, but equally I'm often surprised at the pots some people in fairly bog standard professional jobs have. I suppose that goes back to the higher salaries point.

Surely all the flexibility re family life people have mentioned is entirely dependent on the type of work you do. I'm a nurse so would I be afforded the same level of flexibility?

Oh, should have mentioned, I'm a lawyer, too, but I did leave the big firm track for more manageable in-house roles.

I nearly cried when I got my contract for a new job in the US and saw my 12 days leave entitlement (having been told it offered generous compensation)

Even more wierd was not getting it in advance but having to accrue it, so I couldn't take a day off for a month as I hadn't earnt it yet

I'm a nurse so would I be afforded the same level of flexibility? I have lots of nurses in my family. You wouldn't be allowed to leave in the middle of a shift to go see little Johnny in the sixth grade concert, but you would likely be able to expect your supervisors to help you rearrange a shift or swap a shift for something like that.

I also have lots of teachers in my family and was one for a few years before I went to law school. It will depend on the locale and the school system, but teachers can take days off as needed for things like weddings and other family events. That sort of thing seems to often present big issues for many teachers in the UK.

People will often take their vacation as days here and there, long weekends, a Friday or Monday, the day after Thanksgiving or the day after Christmas (but never both, we always had to take one or the other and the department secretary would coordinate who took what so day after Thanksgiving one year and day after Xmas the next). If you live in another state from your family that often means choosing one or another holiday to 'go home' and sometimes neither if your spouse's family live in another state.

Can work to advantage, however . One year we took day after Thanksgiving and Monday after Thanksgiving weekend off to attend ex-BIL's wedding in Puerto Rico. The flight from Atlanta to Denver that Sunday was frighteningly overbooked, but as we had the next day off, we waited and waited. $800 in cash each, plus hotel and food/drink vouchers and guaranteed seats on the first flight out the next day. Wahey!

'I'm a nurse so would I be afforded the same level of flexibility?'

The thing about nursing there, too, is you are often able to get set shifts and are therefore able to plan life better. If you want to do all nights, you can generally get a job that is only nights. Or if you want, say, 12 hour shifts, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, you can generally get that, too. I knew plenty of nurses who were married to other nurses and would each work opposing shifts to avoid childcare costs.

Lots of people space children, too, till the elder is in kindergarten and thus save on childcare.

'I deal with people who have 401k accounts and similar in my work, and I know they can be drawn whenever. '

No, you can't draw it for 'whatever' without facing huge tax penalties depending on the reason. You can, however, withdraw it for things like house purchase of principal domain, or further education at accredited institute of higher education, or further education of a dependent, that sort of thing or a 'triggering event' without heavy penalties but to do so to say, go on holiday means big penalties, the holder can charge them and you can be taxed as a lump sum payment, which can be quite high.

You can also deduct from your taxes expenses like interest you pay on student loans, interest you pay on the mortgage of your principal domain, some healthcare if it qualifies. States can levy state income tax, too, but these can be offset against what you pay the feds. Texas has no state income tax, but many states do. There's also sales tax and that varies by state.

DH works big British owned corporate and is allowed flexibility for family stuff - Dr appointments, school meetings, etc. But most importantly he gets 7 weeks holiday a year. I suppose he can come and go as he pleases due to his seniority but that flexibility for family stuff is not unique to USA. And having 7 weeks off a year is fairly family friendly.

I worked USA corporate straight out of my MBA and I worked for 2 years without a single day off except the few national holidays. We were expected to arrive early and stay late and we genuinely worked our proverbial assess off. We did have flexible hours in that we could work starting at 5:00am until 9pm. People worked when they were sick and if there were serious illnesses and they didn't have enough PTO to take paid leave then we could donate our own sick leave to our colleagues!

Women worked until the minute they went into labour and were often back well before their mat leave had finished due to the pressure. We did have in house "day care" so women at least had their babies on site (and a few dads). We were expected to eat at our desks, drinking was discouraged and we had random drug testing.

I transferred to the UK to a British company, showed up the first day 1 1/2 hours early and the place was closed. I panicked thinking something horrible had happened only to realise that people actually didn't arrive at the office until 10 minutes or so before start time.

I was even reprimanded in the USA for being chronically late when I was only arriving 30 minutes early.

This was in the 90's though. Things may be worse now.

My sister still works USA corporate and pulls horrendously long hours. But she has at lest saved up about a years worth of sick leave should she ever be ill.

Yes I know you face tax penalties. You can still draw it though. That's why people can use it as savings to meet the income requirements under UK immigration rules even if they're under pension age- which is how I found out!

Oh, and we had a round of drinks in the wine bar to celebrate my employment the first day at my job in the UK. Bit of culture shock going back to work after lunch with a drunk boss.

Ha! I think drunk boss is much less the thing now than it used to be in in certain industries a couple of decades ago. I have worked alongside people who were drinking on the job actually, but they had an actual problem.

Is it also because many people are under pressure and have huge loans to pay off following university in the US? I've heard of people with student loans the size of a mortgage.

Texas has no state income tax, but many states do.

Neither does Florida, for which we thank any of y'all who come to visit us and spend money (and therefore pay sales tax.)

Uni is expensive but that has nothing to do with the relentless pace of work. That has its origins in the Puritan work ethic.

Leisure is not given a high priority.

But I don't understand how "family values" can be so heavily espoused when the society doesn't support it at all.

This was in the 90's though. Things may be worse now. Generally speaking, I think things are better now. For one thing, there are more legal protections. Who knows what will happen with our current so-called administration, though. Rights, privileges, and benefits of all sorts will disappear if the Trump enablers have their way.

Yeah, loans can be tremendous, especially for private universities. It's why so many work FT and study, many unis are set up specifically for this, to cater to such individuals and even community colleges offer basic classes in evening and daytime or online to cater to such students and to those who want to lecture PT to top up their FT income or continue to work whilst drawing a pension if they have one or to achieve work-life balance or due to childcare issues. There's quite a market for this and it's possible to study flexibly for many courses.

Some people also chose military service to offset cost of further education as service can make them eligible for grants or even debt forgiveness depending on service. I climbed with a few medics who had been military doctors for some time to pay for their education. The military academies operate on such a system, you get a university education in exchange for service during and after your education, and competition is extraordinarily fierce for entry into these academies and very hard whilst in there. My BIL's sister is an Air Force Academy graduate who has combined being a mother of 4 with a very successful military career.

The work ethic is one of the family values. Although I shy away from that expression as it is more a shibboleth of the right, especially the religious right.