To wonder why US dramas fetishise workolism?...

[coconuttella]

... Grey's Anatomy, West Wing, Suits... I could go on, but all seem to worship at the altar of the all-consuming career.

Actually many of the most successful series portray people barely working at all.

Just trying to imagine Harvey sat in his pjs watching netflix every night.

Or mike and Rachel arguing over whose turn it is to brew up.

Not sure it would make great TV.

I live in the US and yes, it's more like that. But - it's also easier to take a half day or extended lunch to watch your kid in the school play or go to the doctor's etc. So DH only gets a few days leave each year, but could go in late if he wanted without having to book time off, he'd just make up for it elsewhere.

And yes, working to support yourself is really a very important cultural more here. People are shocked at the idea of people like my MIL who is perfectly fit and healthy but hasn't worked since turning 58. They just see that as hugely entitled laziness. She just stopped working because she wanted to retire, and could (barely) afford to.

But it's a common complaint about the media - it doesn't actually reflect real life. We work hard, but can also spend a lazy morning in PJs watching TV or playing games. That just wouldn't be shown on a movie about our lives, they'd fast forward to Monday morning and skip the weekend.

how do people ever spend their money...

Online shopping (my apt had a convenient concierge service). Never needed to do a big supermarket shop as I ate out, at work or got takeaway ...just grabbed essentials like bread and milk on way home at one of a zillion late night deli's. I didn't have kids in those days and found work very competitive, but in a positive way. I liked excelling and getting recognition for it and everyone I worked with was like-minded so you worked hard.

For me though, it wasn't sustainable long term and after 5 years I came home to avoid burn out. I still have plenty friends there who continue to work like that even though many of us have young families now....to be honest I can't imagine how they do it.

'People are shocked at the idea of people like my MIL who is perfectly fit and healthy but hasn't worked since turning 58. They just see that as hugely entitled laziness.'

Yeah, people are shocked at the idea of retiring from one profession and then just not working at all at relatively young ages. Or the idea that if you work a manual job you just stop working altogether at a relatively young age. You're expected to get another job working at something else.

Even if you don't financially need to? Ie if you have enough yourself to live on. I know the benefits system is different but there are presumably people who have their own resources.

It's also OK to 'downsize' your job for things like having young kids or getting near retirement. I'm a teacher in a private school, and there are many of my colleagues who have taken a step back as they get older, and the school works with them to provide employment but not so full-on as before. Some have gone into support roles, others have gone part time, then they retire a few years later. Other teachers with young kids don't have quite the same expectations for turning up to evening events, going on trips etc.

Even "MacJobs" come with things like healthcare, contributions towards college costs, flexible hours etc. People do expect to work hard, but there's also an expectation that the employer will work with you around things like family, getting a degree. I'm sure there are crappy employers who suck the life out of their employees, but in general there's quite a strong emphasis on allowing for family time.

Drama doesn't reflect real life.

Even the most British kitchen sink dramas are highly crafted and only show certain aspects of life, where the conflict is centred. Roundedness abd balance don't make good drama or comedy for that matter.

'Even if you don't financially need to? Ie if you have enough yourself to live on. I know the benefits system is different but there are presumably people who have their own resources.'

You are expected to provide for yourself for the duration of your life, mostly, so it's a rare thing to quit working entirely because you have enough yourself to live on at present, you'd have to be quite rich to do that indefinitely. So yes, you'd still continue working.

A few of the families I work with are exceptionally wealthy. They still work. They either oversee a company that is making them millions a year, or (the wives) do charity work, volunteer in the school regularly, run around after the kids and do some part time work. I don't know anyone who doesn't work, if you include SAHMs (very much talked about as being a job here). My friends where I live are not super wealthy, and they all work as well. It really is part of the ethic. There is very little welfare for those who don't work, and healthcare is attached to work, so there's a very strong incentive to get out there and earn money. Even wealthy families send their kids out to work at 16 (part time) and almost everyone in college has a part time or summer job, just to get experience, even if they don't need the money.

On the other hand, kids get 3 months off over the summer! Childhood really is magical compared to being a working adult.

Because that is the reality in the USA, if you don't put the hours in the employer will find someone else who will. Also, because there is very little in the way of a social safety net re unemployment benefits and healthcare if you don't work - you work.

Employers here do not have to give any paid vacation/maternity/sick leave entitlements at all, most do because they want to keep their employees but the paid leaves is way way lower than in other Western countries and even if you've accrued 2 weeks or more most don't go away for 2 full weeks because that shows lack of commitment. Also medical and legal student loan debt which includes tuition can be over 6 figures. It truly is a rat race.

Yeah, a good friend of mine has very wealthy parents. Her father still works because he loves it. Her mother works a lot for charity and loves it.

'Even wealthy families send their kids out to work at 16 (part time) and almost everyone in college has a part time or summer job, just to get experience, even if they don't need the money.'

This. There's a real shock here, 'They can't work and study!' whereas there, if you don't work and study, you seriously dent your chances of getting a good FT job after study because the employers want to see experience of some sort. And many, many, may people work FT and study either PT or FT there, it's very, very common and even very good unis are able to accommodate such students, and want to. My sister got her master's whilst working FT, my cousin a PhD, several I worked with went to law school whilst working FT, all sorts.

VERY common to re-train in your 40s or even 50s and no one says, 'Nope, you're too old, you'll never get a job in that field.'

In my HE establishment I'd say 95% of students work during their studies. With our mostly state-educated intake it's a necessity (and many have quite heavy caring roles at home too) I know the proportion is lower in places where students are from wealthier backgrounds, but I have to say it's more normal for students to work than not in the UK these days. And IME these are often the most driven and motivated students.

I just would've thought there must be people who are like 56 and paid off the mortgage, and have maybe a few hundred a month in rental or shares or pensions income or something non-worky, and maybe a working spouse too, who could decide to live off that instead of working. Ie well off but not spectacularly so, and making the decision to live cheaply. But I suppose if most people are reliant on an employer for health insurance, that explains why they might keep working rather than downsize expenses.

I'm interested to hear more about the emphasis on family time. Seems impossible if people only get a couple of weeks off a year, but presumably isn't.

Tbh i dont work like anyone in suits.

But i do work alot. 8 hours in the office, a couple at home. Work from home if i need to. Its hard for me to take a week or 2 weeks off. But i can leave when i want.

Dd has an event at school this week. I can leave early and not take annual leave. As my boss knows i will be picking up emails and working later that day.

I always spend time with my kids in the evening and weekends. Can work from home if they are ill etc.

While i work a lot, i also get the flexibility i need for the kids.

'I just would've thought there must be people who are like 56 and paid off the mortgage, and have maybe a few hundred a month in rental or shares or pensions income or something non-worky, and maybe a working spouse too, who could decide to live off that instead of working. Ie well off but not spectacularly so, and making the decision to live cheaply. But I suppose if most people are reliant on an employer for health insurance, that explains why they might keep working rather than downsize expenses.'

Buy to let or renting out investment properties is nowhere near as prevalent there (thank FUCK!) because there are a lot of heavy tax laws in many states to discourage individuals from doing that, it's largely the domain of corporation/business. None of this, 'My LL is selling up, I need to move' every six months. Or paying EA's huge fees.

Cannot think of anyone who is only 56 and would stop working completely unless disabled, just no, especially not with a spouse working full-time, how fucking lazy can you get? And besides, gives you more time to sock away money or invest it to provide for yourself later on. Downsize, take a less full on job, but c'mon, people are usually living till mid-80s or later, cannot seriously expect to not work at all for 30+ years! Especially not there.

The tax structure is set up to encourage further investment of shares or dividends rather than withdrawing them and using them to be economically inactive until you're quite well on in years, too.

Well, all those shows are about people doing pretty important and well paid jobs. Doctors, lawyers at big firms, senior White House staffers, CIA agents etc. You can't do those sorts of things and expect to work a nice neat 8hr day. Many doctors work crazy long hours, lawyers trying to make partner or keep their firm afloat work like mad, and White House staffer/CIA agent kind of speaks for itself I think.

If you look at US shows where the characters aren't working in top tier positions or don't especially care about their career, it's a different story. You have shows like the US Office and Parks & Rec where some characters make a point of doing the bare minimum, and many sitcoms in the style of Friends eg. lots of joking that no one's ever at work. It's not as common in workplace based dramas because dramas need stakes, but there's still plenty of examples of supporting characters who don't put much time or effort in. Every cop bar Molly in Fargo S1 for example.

The UK has loads of cop dramas like Luther and The Fall and Broadchurch which feature detectives totally consumed by their work. Plus shows like The Thick of It and State of Play where it's obvious no one's at home much, or even Call The Midwife where the nurses and nuns are often running on fumes.

'Friends' was about as realistic as those goofy Hugh Grant films.

I work in the UK for a large corporate US company... as PP have said above the employment rights (or more so the lack of) are very different- 12 week mat leave, less than 2-3 weeks holiday (it is virtually unheard of to use your full entitlement and most accumulate it for several years before taking a 1-2 week holiday), wages are substantially higher but that is because there are less employee benefits/safety nets such as long term sick leave, employer contributions to pensions, etc. Most are also employed as 'at will' employees, which makes it easier to let them go with little notice. Not to mention there are limited state benefits to fall back on.
Aside from that there is a general cultural difference in American work ethic.
However it's much more flexible in many aspects comparing both US and UK management - I feel a bit sick, I can WFH and do some emails/important meetings or I need to leave early to do something personal- a U.K. Manager would expect me to use sick or annual leave, a US manager does not as they acknowledge that unpaid time has been accumulated multiple times over elsewhere out of hours.

I had heard that the US doesn't have our BTL problem, so that's one positive thing.

Also I didn't specify that the spouse needed to be working full time expat! I was just thinking, to take my own family as an example, mine and DHs monthly basic bills after housing, childcare and DC hobbies are paid are just shy of £800. £700 if you exclude his commute, which obviously you would if he were the one to give up work. And that's with a few luxuries plus food and running a home large enough for kids plus a car. Half of that is £400, or £350 if it were DH who stopped working. Could be even less if we were frugal, and save the extra for emergencies, spends etc, and with more time we'd be able to get bills down even further. We're very work/life balance and try to do this anyway, but for example I'm paying someone this week to clean our windows because we don't have time to do it, it'll be about 1 hour 20 of my earnings. I could do that myself with more time and no small DC around. Things like that.

I know the cost of living in the US is very cheap in some areas so there are probably people who'd need even less. Hence I didn't think it would be too implausible that there might be people of that age group with £400 a month from non-employment sources. I don't personally hold to the idea that it's inherently more moral for someone in that position to continue in paid employment instead of simply living off their small resources. But the health insurance thing must be significant. I have heard of people needing to pay hundreds of dollars a month. Must make the working little and spending little lifestyle much more difficult.

Sorry in fact it'd be £640 without commute I forgot parking costs. I wfh though so nothing to save there.

My brother and SIL live in the US. I can't remember my DB's leave entitlement off-hand, but SIL gets 15 days a year, which seems very little indeed. She wouldn't dream of taking more than a few days in a row, and seldom uses her full entitlement. They both seem to work exceptionally long hours. Seems horrendous to me.

15 days is quite good in the US isn't it?

Vellum, yes that's what she says. She started on 10 and has now worked up to 15 as she's got more senior.