to think DH is rewarding the DCs poor behaviour?

[Busybecca]

Following on from my thread about DH babying our DC and allowing them to be rude and dictate to him, we've been talking about our different approaches to try and find some middle ground. Another aspect of parenting we have different views on is reactions to bad behaviour/not listening/not getting their own way.

Tonight DDs (3 and 4) were playing with the water table. DD (3) had a pot of water and went down to the washing line and deliberately tipped it on the washing. I went out and asked her not to, explaining that I wanted it to get dry - not even more wet. A few minutes later, she did it again. I returned and warned her that if she refused to listen and did it one more time then I'd remove her pots altogether. She did it again, I removed her pots. She cried and screamed for a bit and I reiterated what I'd asked her not to do, how she hadn't listened and that I'd explained and followed through with the consequence.

If DH had been in this situation, he would have moved the washing to prevent having to ask DD to stop. If I had been there and told him I needed the washing dry and to leave it out then he'd have asked DD to stop at least ten times before removing the pots. He would then carry her off to do something else to cheer her up, giving her his full attention while ignoring her sister who was being well behaved.

IMO he's rewarding poor behaviour with attention and alternative activities and I think they won't learn unless they have a chance to feel the consequences of their actions. The other day, DD (4) kept poking DD (3) in the ear while she was drawing and rather than tell her to stop, DH carried her off and gave her her weekend magazine she receives if she's been good He thinks this is distraction and works as it stops tears and fall out. I think sometimes there needs to be tears and fall out and that conflict can't always be avoided to keep the peace. He thinks I'm being harsh on them and I'm struggling to see a middle ground because he absolutely believes he isn't rewarding them.

What do you think?

Move the washing???

Hahahaha-where to?

Nope, the water goes away.

I would take the washing in as soon as it was dry though & then the water could be played with again.

Cannot see how telling a child (of any age) to cease wilful disobedience or naughtiness is bad parenting. If it's not checked early, then it will continue and get worse. Sensible rules and gentle discipline result in well mannered civil adults. Most of us have probably met individuals not fortunate enough to receive loving parental correction.

I would move the washing BEFORE letting them play if I knew this coud be an issue.
I wouldnt move the washing because a child is being a pain and not doing as they are told. The DELIBERATE act of putting water onto the clothes isnt on at all. My 3yo would have taken that as its ok to put water on clothes in general, not just the ones that are drying...
So this will look like me moving the washing away if they are playing with water guns because they are likely to put water everywhere, incl on the clothes (but wo meaning to wet the clothes if that makes sense). Or if the water table is very close to the washing and I know they bbbwill splash everywhere.
But them being told off if they are playing at the water table and they are deliberately taking water from the table to pour onto the clothes. And I wouldn't move the clothes because if they are playing 'normally' no water will go on them.

Re picking her up and giving her plenty fo attention. Again, distraction is a great technique bit noit when he is using it.
So you see a child starting to something they shouldnt. You say NO once and then distract them with something else, take them away to do something else. You dont fight for 15 mins, tell them numerous times not to do it and THEN take them away to do somehting else, giving them plenty of attention!

Also, you need tobe very careful about giving some attention to the dc when they are being good So attention isnt something you only get when you are a bit naughty (see the issue with your older dd).

Can we not tell our children how to behave anymore?

Pengggwn no one said this.

You explain and warn a child of the consequences of an action and then if they do it again you just carry out the consequence. That is how they learn and being upset is part of that. You don't have to have a big debate about it or get worried about them having a tantrum.
Why are people so terrified of their child being upset?

I think there's a lot of people who are misunderstanding those of us who are saying there is no need to discipline quite as severely as the OP did.

I don't see anyone saying: sure, why bother with rules? Just let them run wild. Or even: they'll pick it up when they're older, so who cares?

Some children never get any discipline. Some children are disciplined too much and neither way is very good for children's mental well-being or for their ability to fit in in society.

Everyone will have different rules and expectations and that is totally fine, but you do have to be realistic about what small children can understand.

I think the main issue is that the parents don't agree on the appropriate expectations for their children.

gottaget I am certainly not afraid of my children being upset and I haven't seen anyone on the thread who said they were afraid of their children being upset. I just don't see the point of her being upset because of some water on some already wet washing on a hot sunny day.

I pick my battles.

I don't really like the way that people who don't do 'rewards and punishments and consequences' for every little thing are being painted as fey, wishy-washy people who can't discipline their children.

I am with you op, two warnings is ample for a three year old. Distraction is a great tactic with small children but they do need to learn that actions have consequences. Lots of three year olds go to preschool and have no problem following simple rules and instructions. Your dh is lazy but i am not sure what you can do about it. I have the opposite problem, my dh was always way too harsh on the dc when they were small, he wouldn't even have given a warning in those circumstances, he would have brought them in or removed the pots straight away. We have had many a row over parenting over the years, he has mellowed with age and now that they are older its easier. I hope you find a way to make him listen, good luck.

I think sometimes a 3/4 year old will be acting through poor impulse control, and sometimes they are pushing boundaries, and the person with them will hopefully have good judgement in relation to what is going on. If my dc were putting water on my washing on purpose, with a smile on her face, when 3 yrs, I think I would have seen that as her asking for some positive attention from me and I would have tried to give her that - like playing with them at the sand and water. So yes distraction, but I wouldn't have moved washing, because dc would have calmed down and started to focus on having fun rather than trying to annoy me. It isn't so much about walking on eggshells but instead meeting their needs, or trying to.

In terms of discipline, I did a mix of both at that age, sometimes consequences and sometimes choosing battles, because I wasn't sure. My time over I would say consequences are a total waste of time long term, what works is gently helping the child to control their impulses and at the same time develop empathy for others' needs (balanced with their own needs) and a combination of the two leads to "good" behaviour. Plus an awareness of social rules and skills. I agree with a pp that rules in one place are not necessarily going to be followed in other places and because of that the child needs to develop their own desire to behave well rather than be controlled.

children who are confident enough to stand up to others while respecting the rights of others

That confidence to stand up to others is marvellous in the right circumstances....and utterly grating when those circumstances aren't quite right. And it takes maturity and experience to judge that. It's th same with nonconformism. It's great not to feel that you have to conform to a norm if you don't want to. But should you know what that norm is? I think so - it's helpful if you want to function in society. And is being terribly outré just for its own sake something to be admired? I don't think so, anyway.

natalia I think you're taking my point rather to extremes.

I agree with you in full. They need to learn to listen to and respect their parents and the rules.
I think you're right in that his basically rewarding of the bad behaviour will make life much harder in the long run for both you and them.

Glad there are some.people who see the nuances and raise the discussion slightly above level of discussions on the daily Mail.

You did the right thing, OP. TBH though, I'd have given a warning after DD had wet the washing the first time, and then taken away the cups after the second time.

This isn't really about the washing though. It's about children learning boundaries and that are consequences for behaving a certain way (good and bad).

Your DH is ridiculous. He clearly has no idea on how to parent effectively. I've seen the results of parenting his way, and they are not pretty. It results in unhappy, spoilt, horrible children who rarely have any friends. Why does he want to set his children, and those around them, for a life of misery? Does he WANT them to be disliked once they go to school and out into the wider world? Because that's where it's heading. A spoilt brat at four is one thing; a spoilt brat at 14 or 24 is another (much worse) thing totally.

It's not about the washing though is it. It's about deliberately doing something you've been warned not to do. A 3/4 year old may struggle with the idea of unintentional consequences such as splashing wildly may inadvertently get the washing wet. But she did it on purpose. The OP wasn't suggesting 4 hours in her bedroom and no dinner she just took the pots away. That's how children learn.

I was going to write a thoughtful post about finding a middle ground but OP you seem so insistent that you are right and your DH is wrong I don't see the point.

Did you want validation or honest opinions because doing faces and getting defensive if anyone disagrees is not the way to find a common ground with your DH.

I am certainly not afraid of my children being upset and I haven't seen anyone on the thread who said they were afraid of their children being upset. I just don't see the point of her being upset because of some water on some already wet washing on a hot sunny day

That's fine if you are not bothered by the water getting on drying washing. I was referring to carrying out a consequence for a warning. You wouldn't give a warning for that situation. That's different.

I remember your previous thread.

Your DH appears to be determined to be their best friend instead of their parent. Insanity. Most of the children I know whose parents raise them that way are little horrors: entitled, bossy, and think they're more important than everyone else. I can almost always identify those children in my classes pretty quickly.

I actually don't think he's lazy. It takes far more effort to be endlessly placating the DC than it does to have simple boundaries and stick to them. After she cried for a couple of minutes after the water incident she apologised off her own back and went off to play with lego happily. When she'd been doing that nicely for a few minutes I went to join her and all was fine. The water incident was the first thing she had done all day where I'd had to ask her not to so I don't think I'm nit-picking. Generally they're well behaved but it isn't by luck, reinforcing boundaries in instances like this keeps the behaviour up IMO.

It's got to the point where the DC will cry if told not to do something or told off and DH will go running to them and they'll actually tell him what it'll take to get them to stop crying - ice cream, reading to them right now, something new to play with, a trip to the park. If that's not manipulation, I don't know what is! He didn't have a harsh upbringing so I'm not sure why he's so desperate for them to never shed a tear.

If paint comes out I move things that might be spoilt by paint. If crayons come out or felt tips, I move things that might be spoilt by marks. If water comes out I move things that might be spoilt by water. Why turn it into a stupid power struggle.

Cannot see how telling a child (of any age) to cease wilful disobedience or naughtiness is bad parenting. I think thinking about the behaviour of very young children as willful disobedience is more of an issue than telling off per se. It's age-appropriate behaviour. Behaviour we want to change, but age-appropriate and normal nonetheless.

We often 'right fight' and try to show our children who's the boss and forget that what we are actually trying to do is raise effective, happy and well-rounded adults. Working on the behaviour is the thing, not wanting robotic compliance in all things.

Someone once said to me that what we want from children is the opposite of what we want in adults; silence, not speaking out, compliance, sitting still, colouring (and thinking) within the lines, not experimenting and thinking broadly, accepting the status quo, blind obedience to authority.

Those of us who choose our battles don't entirely fail to parent. That's just irritating, reductionist thinking. When I need DD to do something, she does it - very quickly. Because I rarely expect compliance from her she knows it's serious when I do. I almost never have to repeat myself when it's serious and I almost never raise my voice.

I think both the OP and DH need parenting classes, to move closer to each other. He needs to learn boundaries and not reward undesirable behaviour and she needs to learn to stop thinking about her children as willful, naughty or disobedient, and to pick battles and learn other techniques to elicit desirable behaviour.

A pp poster mentioned blind obedience and it made me laugh. I have worked in preschool childcare for many years and I haven't met one of those type of children yet. Kids on the the other end of the obedience scale, I have met a great many of those. As for picking your battles, how do we know the op doesn't, unless she is a robot she must occasionally let things go when she's busy, tired, can't be arsed. Wanting children of age 3+ to listen and accept consequences after sufficient warnings isn't going to stifle their development, far from it as long as its done with love and consistency.

I have worked in preschool childcare for many years and I haven't met one of those type of children yet. Not at that stage, maybe. But presumably you're heard of Milgram and his experiments with obedience.