to think DH is rewarding the DCs poor behaviour?

[Busybecca]

Following on from my thread about DH babying our DC and allowing them to be rude and dictate to him, we've been talking about our different approaches to try and find some middle ground. Another aspect of parenting we have different views on is reactions to bad behaviour/not listening/not getting their own way.

Tonight DDs (3 and 4) were playing with the water table. DD (3) had a pot of water and went down to the washing line and deliberately tipped it on the washing. I went out and asked her not to, explaining that I wanted it to get dry - not even more wet. A few minutes later, she did it again. I returned and warned her that if she refused to listen and did it one more time then I'd remove her pots altogether. She did it again, I removed her pots. She cried and screamed for a bit and I reiterated what I'd asked her not to do, how she hadn't listened and that I'd explained and followed through with the consequence.

If DH had been in this situation, he would have moved the washing to prevent having to ask DD to stop. If I had been there and told him I needed the washing dry and to leave it out then he'd have asked DD to stop at least ten times before removing the pots. He would then carry her off to do something else to cheer her up, giving her his full attention while ignoring her sister who was being well behaved.

IMO he's rewarding poor behaviour with attention and alternative activities and I think they won't learn unless they have a chance to feel the consequences of their actions. The other day, DD (4) kept poking DD (3) in the ear while she was drawing and rather than tell her to stop, DH carried her off and gave her her weekend magazine she receives if she's been good He thinks this is distraction and works as it stops tears and fall out. I think sometimes there needs to be tears and fall out and that conflict can't always be avoided to keep the peace. He thinks I'm being harsh on them and I'm struggling to see a middle ground because he absolutely believes he isn't rewarding them.

What do you think?

I 100% agree with you.

Too many parents are too lenient today and afraid of upsetting their children. Children need parenting. With the washing she was being deliberately naughty and testing your boundaries. Children need boundaries, rilea and consistency to feel secure and you are trying hard to provide that.

I'm at a loss as to how to get through to your DH, he doesn't seem to be on the same book as you, let alone the same page!

Qvar your method is to capitulate to the child and always foresee what their poor impulse control may lead them to do.

I much prefer OP's method. Her DD understood that there was a consequence to what she did and is therefore less likely to do it again. Yes, she cried for a bit but that's normal. She probably moved onto something else quickly.

wilful disobedience You are definitely on a different page to your DH, aren't you?

FWIW I'm somewhere in between. The washing, honestly, it's hot, who cares? And if I really cared, I'd move it. The messing with her sister's ears? That would be a consequence. Because it's to someone else and it could hurt.

My life got a lot better when I saved the heavy hand for the actual issues. Once you've removed things that they can't do (because of age), the things that actually aren't that important (but you have a script about obedience), and those things that you should have seen coming (because of tiredness, hunger, illness or stress) you're left with the shit you actually need to discipline. And that's a small amount.

BTW my 6 yo with ADHD just got complimented by all and sundry at a BBQ of strangers because her manners are so nice, so I'm probably not THAT parent.

Agree with MrsTerryPratchett.

I'll add that you both sound like you get some bits right and some bits wrong. But you both need to learn how to work together. That would be a really good example to set, one that's as important as consequences.

It sounds like you expect too much and he doesn't expect enough. You need to find a happy medium somehow.

I do think 3 is a little bit young to get so annoyed at things like that. They have a very short memory, poor impulse control and no clear idea of consequences, even if they're explained to them. I used to work next door to a teacher who taught 3 year olds and all day all I could hear was 'don't touch that. Stop touching that. Don't touch those.' By the end of the year, they were still touching everything. It just doesn't work. You have to accept that they will touch every single thing they see, so either put it out of their sight or accept it's going to get touched. It's part of their natural curiosity.

I don't think your husband's way of dealing with it was right either though.

I think you both very firmly need to be on the same page regarding childcare and if you aren't, it's very easy for one parent to be the fun parent, and one is the mean parent.

My DC are 3 and 5 and after tipping water on my washing once they'd get a firm ticking off and water removed after the second time! Then I'd send them to do something else instead, I wouldn't punish further, but I would tell them it was a silly thing to do and they must never do it again. Perfectly old enough to understand that, in my opinion.

With my DH I usually ask 'how do you imagine what you just taught them playing out in their future workplace? Do you think it will go well? What happens when they pull that trick on their boss.' If he answers that the kid is too young to worry about setting bad precedents, I remind him that it is part of the curriculum/daily practice at childcare, let alone kinder and early school

Wow. So kids can't be kids.

The education system doesn't turn out young adults ready for the workplace anymore (a GCSE grade C in maths/English is no longer an indicator of numeracy/literacy) and children in the U.K. are some of the unhapiedt in the world.

Contrast that with countries where children are allowed to be children and who start formal schooling later........

*unhappiest

OP You are right.

The problem is, your husband's way of 'managing' behaviour is quite common place and it becomes obvious in school which children are parented like this. Their behaviour is generally poor because they haven't developed any ability to regulate it and it can be a long and tough process to correct it by then. Especially when the more permissive parenting is still happening at home.

Your children are in for one nasty shock when they start school and realise that the rules have to be followed and don't just get rewritten and adapted to suit them.

He really isn't doing them any favours.

Distraction would have been something like drawing attention to her picture and talking about it/offering a different colour crayon to stop her from messing with her sister's ear, or moving her to sit a little further away.

I don't think I you can expect to leave a three and a four yr old with water and it not end up everywhere. So if you mind that and can't closely supervise then you find them something else to do.

I'm with you OP.
You both need to be on the same page and appeasing 3/4 year olds to avoid having consequences is lazy parenting on the part of your DH.
One event on its own I'd say don't sweat it, but he's undermining you and wants to be fun daddy to your mean mummy. Aka misbehave all you like for mummy and daddy will give you cuddles and rewards.

He carries on like that it'll be a nightmare for them at school (and probably a nightmare for staff who will phone you and you'll reasonably be supportive only for fun daddy to stick up for his child who 'ONLY...' And thinks teachers should have entertained his princess more'

I have three dc ranging in age from 12 years to 21 months and one thing I have learned is the importance of picking battles - and recognising what kind of battle you need to have.

I wouldn't have made the washing incident a (for want of a better word) moral issue. The child probably thought something like 'oh, it's wet, I'll make it wet too'. I'd have said 'oh, let's not do that, it'll take longer to dry' and engaged her in another activity with the pots/water. If she then had done it again I would have taken the pots away without a further warning, but framed as a natural consequence rather than a 'punishment' - 'we can't use these any more because the washing keeps getting wetter, let's do something else'. For you it seemed to be a naughtiness issue where discipline needed to prevail. I'd try not to think of it in those terms, especially with such young children.

Why does she only get a magazine when she's 'been good' - surely reading/literacy of all kinds is to be encouraged? And does she actually know what 'being good' means? It's quite an abstract concept for a young child.

I agree that talk over future workplaces is massive overkill with a 3 and 4yo!

Oh dear, well I must be meanest mummy in the world because I would have taken the pots away and administered a telling off the first time! My husband used to pander to our eldest like that and not only did it make him rather bratty around his dad, he also had zero respect for him.

Contrast that with countries where children are allowed to be children and who start formal schooling later........

My understanding is that formal schooling starts later in some countries precisely because the emphasis in the early years is placed on developing these social skills and other positive behaviours so that they are ready and able to learn when they start.

hetereonormative totally agree. I don't really think there's any need to bring 'naughtiness' into it with children that young. I don't think they have any idea of what they are doing and it just confuses them.

I don't really agree with rewards for good behaviour and punishments for bad behaviour anyway, but for very small children, I don't think they really work at all.

Told you, you need to make him see,

Next time he takes the washing in, so they can wet play, chuck some water on him. when he asks why, tell him how you feel....

The ear thing, well sit by him and poke his ear, when he asks you to stop, ask him where your treat is....

Only by SHOWING him he is wrong will he realise...

Yes , I know this is childish, but this man NEEDS to see what you see to change...

He needs to go on a parenting course. That's what he needs.

From your example, I think it's clear she's not understanding the "If you do X, X will happen". So no matter how much you say "don't do that or I'll take it away", she's not going to understand it. It has to be much more immediate if you're going to do it at all.

She did understand hula, she was watching me and grinning as she repeated it. She was testing my boundaries so I showed her I was serious. She may have cried for a bit but actually she's more secure and happy with me so I think long term she prefers that I stick to what I say I'm going to do. The washing was several metres away so to keep doing it was very deliberate. I can't believe people think children of 3/4 don't have any idea of what they are doing At what age does this develop then, Yellow Jumper, and how will they ever learn to listen if not listening is acceptable at this age?

It's a gradual development up to around age 7.

I remember your last thread, but I didn't read the full thing so I don't know if any one asked this then, but did your DH have very strict parents growing up? To me his behaviour comes across not so much as lazy, but more as he can't bear to see his daughters upset in any way. If he was parented by very strict, not very loving parents then he probably remembers being small and scared and very unhappy and never wants his children to feel that way, so can't even do normal action/consequence discipline.

Why did you ask if you're being unreasonable when you are solidly convinced that you are right and everyone who does things differently is wrong?

Mine are 10 years older than yours so I've had time to notice patterns. Children who are raised to be unthinkingly obedient to their parents are sometimes unthinkingly obedient to everyone. Including peers. Children who are tightly controlled do not, in fact, develop better self control than their peers, but they do develop a bossy, controlling method of communication with their peers, whichever makes them unpopular and isolated.

Children that age don't actually learn properly from repeated punishments, consequences, rewards etc, we are social animals and we learn from each other. What are they learning from you and your husband? From him they are learning to comfort people when thy are distressed, to be kind to people who are frustrated - what are they learning from you?