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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we couldn't really be in a worse position to start Brexit negotiations tomorrow

131 replies

Bearbehind · 18/06/2017 13:28

My reason for voting Remakn was always that there was no credible case for Leaving imo.

One year on and on the eve of negotiations, we are in a worse position than ever before

  • we don't have a majority government
  • we don't have even the beginnings of a consensus of the type of Brexit we should aim for
  • people are realising that 'a few years pain for long term gain' is going to hurt too much

Are there any positives here?

OP posts:
DorisMcSweeney · 18/06/2017 23:06

Actually, I'd welcome Boris as PM. We're fucked anyway, and he would provide some entertainment as he sailed the ship into the iceberg

Gove and Corbyn are scarier than Boris in that they actually believe the shit they spout. At least Boris is openly a charlatan

BarbarianMum · 18/06/2017 23:13

《It's going to be financially tough in the short to medium term》

You dont say? Hmm Yet strangely i don't remember this being mentioned by the Leave campaign prior to the referendum. Pretty sure it was going to be milk and honey all the way.

Ylvamoon · 18/06/2017 23:17

Cuppaoftea your only reason for voting "leave" is immigration. (Fair enough!)
Firstly, as others have pointed out, the European is more than just a free movement of labour treaty.
And than, nobody (not the EU by any means), made the UK give EU citizens "the full Monty" in regards to in work benefits. It's the UK government that choose to do so. Other EU countries don't, that's why the UK is top destination.
Next, you should look around you. EU migrants actually do work and contribute. They are here because somebody is giving them work. So your grievance should not be with the EU, but with the people who tell the migrants to come and work for them!
As I said on an other thread on the subject: OH works for a company that employs a lot of EU nationals. They did try to get British workers by offering good job prospects. Training / apprenticeships with well paid job promises. Problem was, mine of the young people initially employed lasted very long. Work was to hard, difficult, hours to long, don't like shift pattern... still someone had to do the work. Company found cheaper (no apprenticeships) more willing people.

RiverTam · 18/06/2017 23:44

Cuppa how do you know that every British child comes from a family that has paid tax for decades? There are parts of the country where, long before Poland or Romania joined the EU, British families have been out of work for more than one generation. So, in your view, should they be allowed to use the NHS, take up space in a school, get council housing?

Cuppaoftea · 18/06/2017 23:59

RiverTam Yes they should, I believe in a state system that supports our poorest and most vulnerable. We can't afford to provide those services for millions of EU nationals too though.

Where school places are concerned of course priority for places should be given to British children first. They don't have another country to go to to attend school!

noblegiraffe · 19/06/2017 00:02

I hope all these Leave voters are happy for their kids to become low paid fruit pickers, cleaners, hotel workers, hospital porters. Because we're going to need them to be.

PinkGlitter17 · 19/06/2017 00:03

'This article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:

THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
[Translated] thanks to Paula Kirby
If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country?
Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point.
In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.
The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem.
Already prices are rising in the shops, already inflation is on the up. Investors are holding back. Economic growth has slowed. And that’s before the Brexit negotiations have even begun. With her unnecessary general election, Prime Minister Theresa May has already squandered an eighth of the time available for them. How on earth an undertaking as complex as Brexit is supposed to be agreed in the time remaining is a mystery.
Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line.
The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government.
EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt.
British society is now more divided than at any time since the English civil war in the 17th century, a fact that was demonstrated anew in the general election, in which a good 80% of the votes were cast for the two largest parties. Neither of these parties was offering a centrist programme: the election was a choice between the hard right and the hard left. The political centre has been abandoned, and that is never a good sign. In a country like Great Britain, that for so long had a reputation for pragmatism and rationality, it is grounds for real concern. The situation is getting decidedly out of hand.
After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover.'

Scrumpernickel · 19/06/2017 00:20

Pink I nodded along with every single word in that article. It sums up this farce perfectly. There is no reason for this massive self inflicted wound. We are in this mess because Cameron decided he would appease the swivel eyed Eurosceptic loonbags in his party.

TakeThatFuckingDressOffNow · 19/06/2017 00:23

Oh fuck me, I forgot that was starting tomorrow. Time to bend over...... and let Jean Claude what's his name roger us senseless, and not in a good way 😫😫😫

ExplodedCloud · 19/06/2017 00:31

PinkGlitter17 Broadly I agree with that. It downplays Cameron's utter stupidity and cowardice, the populist power grab of the 'Leave' campaign and glosses over the inability to go against the actual vote ignoring Cameron's failure to set a criteria that should have been 60-40 or a leave plan

ByGaslight · 19/06/2017 00:34

I didn’t vote Leave, it’s not in my (professional, govt) employment interests to do so but I do understand why people did. The EU has gradually reduced the importance of the nation-state, which some people are happy with, in the same way that some people are happy with globalisation and mobility because they benefit from it and it doesn’t threaten their identities. But for those who aren’t happy with it, it cuts into the meaning of their lives, communities and histories.

The changes to the nation-state and and the rise of globalisation are part of why people who are becoming more divided and less equal are fighting - and make no mistake we are fighting - regardless of whether those are the most immediate and direct causes, because they affect a significant number of people’s sense of belonging and meaning. The UK is slowly breaking into factions, the Scottish referendum was also part of that.

Brexit isn’t just some mistake that David Cameron made, he had to hold the referendum because of the Eurosceptics but he could have ignored them if it wasn’t for the inexorable rise of the UKIP vote and the discontent it represented. The UK has avoided the historic extremist governments seen on the continent because the establishment has absorbed opposition, the Tories were trying to do that – own the debate and then own Brexit - and it didn’t work, the signs of discontent and change apparent in the 2010 hung parliament have simply not gone away, despite the events since then.

We’re on a long journey of change: break-up or reconciliation or reconfiguration and Brexit is just one part of that, if a political coalition somehow halted the legal Brexit process, it wouldn’t fix any of the underlying divisions. Like Macron isn’t going to fix France and Trump was never going to fix America. We can’t go back and it’s not yet clear how we’ll go forward. It’s going to be huge, but it may be OK.

ExplodedCloud · 19/06/2017 00:36

TakeThatFuckingDressOffNow I expect the EU people are lying awake tonight consumed by a choice of withering opening gambits.
"So Mr Davis, what is it you want?"

citroenpresse · 19/06/2017 00:37

cuppa with regard to spending, there's absolutely tons of information about where the UK contribution goes, how it is spent, and the UK projects and infrastructure that have benefited. Just as a starting point...

ec.europa.eu/budget/index_en.cfm

ExplodedCloud · 19/06/2017 00:44

ByGaslight no he really didn't. He chose to. He 'had to' to stop UKIP gaining a handful of seats. Possibly. Or maybe not. It was a threat but not actually a serious threat. Cameron's fear was all about the Party and not the country. He didn't want a referendum. He was banking on dropping it in a coalition. The anti EU faction were kept in check by the Tory party until they believed their new shiny faced hubris. Thatcher and Major were fighting above their birth. Cameron believed his hype and is one of the most miserable fuck ups we've had as PM.

NannyOggsKnickers · 19/06/2017 05:37

cuppa ayes, their funding has been increased to meet the demands of more pupils. If those pupils go away then the funding will go with them.

The education system is being systematically dismantled for ideological reasons. Your beef is with austerity not immigrants. But the right wing have sold you a lie.

Those Eastern European children have parents who work. They will be paying taxes. Statistically speaking, EU nationals in this country put morning than they get out of the UK benefits system.

makeourfuture · 19/06/2017 06:50

Actually there have been many messages of concern from many EU quarters. Fair, adult negotiations will benefit all; a hard, chaotic split helps no one. Europe understands this.

Doobigetta · 19/06/2017 07:16

Lots of people on this thread saying they are more convinced than ever that we need to stay in the EU. If you feel that way and you haven't already done so, please join Britain For Europe. We just about avoided disaster in the election but there is still no really strong voice speaking for us in parliament- we need to join together across party lines and keep fighting for that, and we need to get louder and stronger.

MariafromMalmo · 19/06/2017 07:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thinkiamgoingcrazy · 19/06/2017 07:48

We can't afford to provide those services for millions of EU nationals too though.

On balance EU citizens are net contributors to the UK. There aren't millions of EU citizens being supported by the welfare state. Added to which UK citizens currently live in the EU and benefit from education etc....

I expect the EU people are lying awake tonight consumed by a choice of withering opening gambits.
"So Mr Davis, what is it you want?"

Grin

I think we are clearly an ailing nation at the moment, and everything that has happened since and including the referendum is symptomatic of that.

The UK is a very unequal society

and

It's set to get worse

thinkiamgoingcrazy · 19/06/2017 08:17

We are also struggling with our identity - are we still capable of dominating the seas killing lots of people as some obviously believe.

Or do we play to our strengths and muck in with everyone else?

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/05/11/brexit-is-not-only-an-expression-of-nostalgia-for-empire-it-is-also-the-fruit-of-empire/

Bananagio · 19/06/2017 08:24

I'm sure we can prosper as a country outside of the EU. My personal opinion is that it will crumble in it's current form in the not too distant future anyway and we're best getting out before it does.

What are you basing that on cuppa? The resounding message from France electing Macron confirming that they are committed to the European project? the defeat of Wilder in the Netherlands? The recent hammering of populists 5star in Italian local elections? The continued strength of Merkel in Germany in the face of elections this year? The polls showing the increased pro-EU feeling across the continent? The favourable economic indicators coming out over the last few weeks?Yes Europe faces some huge challenges but all the indicators are clearly pointing towards a stronger and more united Europe emerging. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it so!

FuckyDuck · 19/06/2017 08:27

I voted leave.
I stand by that vote, I'm not a racist bigot.
I'm fed up of the EU imposing their rules and views on how the Uk should conduct its business, agriculture and security. I think the free movement of people needs to be limited. We also don't have a net economic gain from EU membership that would be harmed by leaving, people still want to trade with the UK.
I also used other countries as an example of what life is like outside of the EU.

abilockhart · 19/06/2017 08:45

EU citizens have come here to work. For example, EU migrants make up a significant proportion of NHS staff. On balance EU citizens are net contributors to the UK.

UK citizen living in the EU are generally older and many are retired.

Removing EU workers from the NHS and adding the 300,000+ returned older UK nationals in need of healthcare. The NHS will be very quickly on its knees.

TheDogAteMyGoatskinVellum · 19/06/2017 09:11

We could have restricted FOM cuppa, we just didn't. The legal framework to do so was absolutely there.

Also, you're going to get a nasty shock when we end up with more immigration as a consequence of having to go cap in hand to China and India for trade deals. They have already made it clear that's what they want. It's really an outrage that people were allowed to think voting Leave was going to give us more control over immigration numbers.

citroenpresse · 19/06/2017 09:34

I live in the EU, and my family has benefited from v. high quality (free) education. Regulations regarding identity, immigration, access to services etc are much tighter and imposed with far greater efficiency in many other EU countries than they are in the UK. Having clear guidelines about statutory rights whether goods and services or people can be efficient. There's much MUCH more red tape to come now. I know people who voted leave for idealogical reasons and resented being 'controlled' but personally would prefer statutory rights than being landed with the incompetence and whims of Tory Governments.