To think we couldn't really be in a worse position to start Brexit negotiations tomorrow

[Bearbehind]

My reason for voting Remakn was always that there was no credible case for Leaving imo.

One year on and on the eve of negotiations, we are in a worse position than ever before

• we don't have a majority government
• we don't have even the beginnings of a consensus of the type of Brexit we should aim for
• people are realising that 'a few years pain for long term gain' is going to hurt too much

Are there any positives here?

YANBU. We don't even have a government yet and Leave never had any plans about what would happen if the UK did vote to leave. To me, Brexit just seems like an expensive waste of time and for nothing.

I don't think other member states hate us. They despise our divisive, racist, corrupt government, have enormous pity for the 48% who voted to remain, and possibly even greater pity for the 52% dumb enough to believe the sovereignty and NHS lies....and the greatest sadness is reserved for our youth whose most amazing life opportunities have been sold on the cheap.

This is not hate at all. It's much better and worse than that.

Also we have provided them with enough political jokes to last a century, so there's that

Shambles seems too benign a word to describe our situation. A referendum that should never have been called, a Leave campaign based on lies and given the lion's share of favourable media coverage.....and now this, no real government in place on the eve of the negotiations, no one telling us exactly what the plan is, and Tory factions determined to drag us off the cliff into Hard Brexit and all the economic ruin it implies. For what? To stick two fingers up at the EU and warm ourselves with cosy memories of the days when Britannia ruled the waves. Makes me want to punch a fucking wall.

I'm not sure who it was who said this, possibly Macron, that Brexit had acted as a vaccine against anti EU sentiment in other countries. People are looking at us in horror and want no part of this shitstorm for their own country.

It is interesting that there's absolutely no defence on here from anyone.

So basically no one is happy.

Well done Theresa May

As a remainer I could stomach leaving if we were doing a Norway type single market deal. Leaving a trading block with a major trade partner is lunacy. It will cause a massive recession, I don't see how anyone can argue with that. Tariffs reduce trade, which will cause a recession. We are in for a rough decade imo.

I'm happy! YABU, Leave won in the Referendum a whole year ago, after all the attempts to undermine democracy it's finally time to get on with the process.

First on the agenda, what happens with EU Nationals already here and Ireland. People need to know definitely what Brexit means for them.

I still feel the huge sense of relief I felt a year ago the morning after the Referendum. My area has had a huge influx of Eastern European migrants over the last decade and though initially welcomed local services can't cope with the ever increasing numbers now.

If we could have restricted FOM, retained greater independence regarding lawmaking and there was increased transparency as to EU accounts and where our financial contributions go I would have voted to Remain. But that's not the nature of the Union, we're supposed to become a fully fledged state of the EU which there has never been a public mandate for in the UK so out it is.

cuppa could you tell us how you see things actually working out though given the shambolic state we are in at present?

Of course we can and should abandon Brexit. Referenda are advisory, not legally binding and frankly Brexit is an excellent example of why we shouldn't have them (I believe they are illegal in Germany). You can't put a complex question like membership of the EU to a simple yes or no vote, it's utterly ludicrous, they'll be a thousand different reasons people want to leave or stay.

The government is in chaos. 3 terror attacks in 3 months. A housing block burnt to the ground.

We have far more important things to be cracking on with than fucking Brexit.

cuppa if you thought the Eastern Europeans were a strain on local services, just wait until the 1 million plus UK pensioners have to move back from the Costas because their European health cover's gone. Unintended consequences...

It's going to be financially tough in the short to medium term but there's a chance to save our state services and quality of life in the long term.

Severely reduce immigration from low earning EU nationals and economic migrants from further afield.

Local school places once again available for all, siblings attending the same school returning to being expected instead of feeling lucky to get them in together. An improvement to the crises in maternity and other NHS provision due to restriction of the sheer numbers coming in and expecting immediate use of these services for free. Social housing/ in my area even private rentals returning to being available for all UK nationals who need them.

The ability to slash the tax credits bill by them only being available to eligible lower earning EU nationals once they have paid tax in to our system for a number of years.

The security of knowing border checks can be tightened and deportations of foreign terrorists and illegal immigrants made easier.

I see Leave as the only option, we can't carry on as we are. And there is no real Soft Brexit option. Stay in the single market and we have to continue to accept FOM as Norway do. The government rightly accept that wouldn't be democratic as the majority of Leave voters voted on reducing immigration. We have to, we're a tiny island! And I would like us to retain something of our green spaces.

So Cuppa since youve had the courage to put your head above the parapet how do you see it working out?

Whats going to happen to oir trading agtlreements, defence treaties, fishing agreements, our currency rates? I could go on and on.

Its going to take a very long time to sort all this out. I dont think people really knew what they were voting for. You thought younwere voting on freedom of movement but thats only a tiny part of a huge complicated picture.

I felt fear in the pit of my stomach wjen I heard the result... a lonf way from your relief and lots of immigrants in our area too. Actually the person who told me was an immigrant... a Greek doctor.. hope youre not wanting him to go. The Polish nurse who mopped up my vomit an hour later wasnt best pleased either

sorru for typos

not my day.. typos win!!

Oh, Cuppa. What NHS?
And the UK always had control over its borders. It's not in the Schengen zone. What the UK will lose is EU intelligence on terrorist threats (like the intelligence it was given from Italian police forces about one of the London attackers, not that it was acted upon...) The UK will be less safe and less secure post Brexit.

I do know what I've voted for and I'm sure we can prosper as a country outside of the EU. My personal opinion is that it will crumble in it's current form in the not too distant future anyway and we're best getting out before it does.

I have always welcomed some immigration but numbers have to be restricted and the EU doesn't allow that. You look at the land mass of France and Germany then us and it's crazy the number we are forced to accept.

But what did you vote for? You simply ticked a box saying Leave. That's it. Nothing more. No detail, nothing. So when TM says her version of Brexit is the will of the people - no, it isn't. She has no idea, any more than you or I do, of what the 52% meant by leave. And to ignore the 48% (plus all those who didn't vote, of course) is insanity. It was not a catagorical vote to Leave, in no way, shape or form.

cuppa The thing is, your shopping list of wonderful by products of Brexit are tenuous at best and rely on other force, such as a stable economy.

For example, if there is a drop in the number of students attending a school then there is a funding drop to that school and therefore a knock on effect on the amount of money available to the school to spend on teachers and TAs. Schools are paid per pupil. What will happen is that schools with lots of EU children attending will see an enormous shortfall in funding if they all suddenly pack up and leave (if that's what actually happens).

The same goes for health services. They are allocated money by usage. Which is why they have been closing smaller midwife led services.

All the things you mentioned would be improved by an increase in funding.

The birthrate in this country is below replacement level. There are not extra babies being born or going to school. There has just been a cut in the services.

What NHS?

There won't be an NHS even if there's an end to austerity if we continue to allow current levels of immigration. With the best will in the world UK taxpayers can't afford to continue paying the health costs of ever increasing numbers of non/low contributing Eastern Europeans. And some people want Turkey to join

Cuppa, none of this has anything to do with immigration. Social services, schools, the NHS have all been systematically defunded. Not because of austerity, not because of immigrants, but because that's how a government privatises public services without a scandal. I'm happy you are engaging with us on this thread and I just hope you're able to see past the excuses and bollocks you've read in the media or heard from politicians.
Just a question: who will do the low-paid but essential jobs that the Eastern Europeans currently do?

Nanny Local primary schools here have received funding to increase their intake over the last few years but are now very oversubscribed due directly to the numbers of EU nationals in the area. Some local families are having to split siblings across different schools across the city or if not practical one spouse may have to stay at home to home educate reducing family income.

These are British families who have paid in to the tax system for decades and should have state school places readily available at their local Primary for all their children but are seeing those places taken by families who have recently arrived and not paid in a penny.

The balance has been tipped and the strain has to be reduced.

@Cuppaoftea the first point you made is exactly why so many of your Leave voters will realise what a pup you've been sold in months to come.

As my husband said in the early hours of the referendum pantomime unfolding - with tears in his eyes - "Those fucking Leave voters; don't say they weren't warned"

You will get nothing you want out of Brexit and you will be sickened at how slowly if at all, the issues you thought your "vote" was for won't change.

Oh and by the way, it wasn't an election it was a recommendation. The truly democratic thing to do now for the sake of this country would be to pretend it never happened.

Girl In my area a number of lower paid jobs becoming available would be welcomed by locals and easily filled. A number of times over probably!

Ginliness The previous Government said before the Referendum that the result would be respected and acted on.

If Remain had won Remainers would want that result upheld and I'd have respected that.

We aren't a true democracy if we don't allow public Referendums or accept and act on the result of them.

I don't think other member states hate us.

Well, I'm just one single person, but for what it's worth, yes, I pity you.

I also pity roughly half of the Americans. You can probably tell which half.

The truly democratic thing to do now for the sake of this country would be to pretend it never happened.

I would be very happy if that was what happened.

Now that the US has elected been saddled with, by their insane election system, an oran utan in a wig as president, we need a strong Europe.

It could be worse. Boris could be PM. Or Corbyn. Or Gove.

Shockingly any of those could be true by the end of the summer