Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

I educate, I don't indoctrinate.

isittheholidaysyet I notice your use of language- You "know" that god exists, yet you say atheists " think" he doesn't.

I find your attitude quite disturbing.

"Which would mean no-one would mind religious schools teaching religion"

Well, I would, frankly, if my taxes went to pay for them! The only way that might be OK is if people of faith agreed to only apply to faith schools. Even if they lived next door to a brilliant non faith school. That would be a temptation in the wilderness........

In answer to your question- well, are you teaching your child how to be an atheist if it turns out that's what he wants to be? My children have been exposed to lots of different faiths through family and friends- they have been to Mass with grandad, to Quaker meetings with an uncle. We talk a lot, they ask a lot of questions. As they get older they read a lot. Nothing is off limits.
And if a particular faith attracts them, there are lots of ways of finding out more. How would one of your children go about being a Muslim or an atheist if that was the path they found appealing?

C8

Yes of course you are right.
I thought explaining that Saturday night counted as Sunday wasn't really relevant to the thread.
There are very few jobs which require you to work all Saturday night, all Sunday morning and all Sunday night, EVERY single week.
If you are say a police officer and you plan to go to Mass after your shift on Sunday afternoon but get involved in an incident and end up working late you are exempt from Mass.
If you have to work all weekend for the next six weeks but then you are back to you normal shift pattern you are exempt.

That is what the exemptions are for.

If you are looking after sick relatives you are exempt.
I think you are exempt if travelling.
There are probably others.
But the point is they are exemptions. The rule stands.

How do you do that without confusing them, and how do you get the knowledge to do it, and how do you prepare them so they are able to believe in a exclusive religion such as Islam or Christianity if they so choose?

I don't. Not my job to try to lead them down a particular path, or 'prepare' them for anything, or promote any particular faith or type of faith above others.

We talk about the fact that different people have different ideas about the world and how it was made, we talk about some of the different things people believe and some of the different things they celebrate, we talk about science and natural wonder. He knows that there are different sects of Christianity, and doesn't struggle with that.

In an ideal world, he'd have access to everything on religion presented to him fairly evenly, from a secular base. I do not live in that world, so he gets Christianity promoted above other religions. To spare him confusion and dissonance between what school says and what his parents say, we are currently avoiding telling him that I don't think God is real. But I am careful to let him know that different people believe different things, and that some people don't believe in any gods, and that's fine too.

If he finds any faith particularly compelling I will support him in exploring it. I personally hope he doesn't, of course, but I don't see it as my role to try to make him think as I do. That is a heavy burden for someone to bear.

That's a long post. In summary - it is more important to me that my children be able to think critically, embrace difference and diversity, and be secure in making their own choices based on a strong ethical foundation, than that they think like me.

isit On that basis (not expected when no access to Mass) pretty much any job is ok hence it seemed odd to me to say one shouldn't take a job requiring work on Sundays. Its something I associate with some small evangelical protestant/baptist groups but the only RC group I've met with that level of prescription are the Neocats - hence I was wondering which tradition you came from.

Teaching children to question is fundamental to their of understanding for any belief/non belief based framework. How else would they address questions or challenges of others?

Bertrand

Re: schools: I'd be happy with that agreement.

jassy thanks for answering.

I don't believe I can/it is possible/i should teach our children multiple worldviews or belief systems.
Which is why I was asking those who do.

c8 I saw your NC comment a while back. Didn't understand it sorry. No, I've never had anything to do with neo-cats. Bit of charismatic stuff, lots of parishes (we've moved about a bit). Lots of latin/traddy friends at the moment, but latin is not my thing.

Sorry this is for Bertrand messed the post up.

I don't believe I can/it is possible/i should teach our children multiple worldviews or belief systems.
Which is why I was asking those who do.

jassy your thank you should have been at the end of the post.

My phone is playing up tonight.

I don't believe I can/it is possible/i should teach our children multiple worldviews or belief systems.

We can teach them some facts about multiple wordviews and belief systems. We can teach them how to think for themselves, to reason, how to find out more about subjects which interest them. Teach them how to think, not what to think. I would hope no-one would find this approach problematic?

I don't believe I can/it is possible/i should teach our children multiple worldviews or belief systems.

I think that's the difference here. I'm not teaching multiple believe systems, I'm trying to teach that they exist, and different people believe different things and that's ok.

We live in a country and a world fraught with division, much of it on religious lines. I think I have a responsibility to do my very tiny bit to counteract that by trying my damndest to bring up children who are tolerant and inclusive. I think that is best achieved by encouraging them to understand others' beliefs and choices better, equipping them with the skills to evaluate those different beliefs reasonably objectively while at the same time not seeking to impose their beliefs or lack thereof onto others or present them as 'better' or 'superior'.

Having grown up in a very white and mono-religious area, I know firsthand it is much more difficult to really understand where others are coming from if you haven't grown up with those ideas, including the idea that all faiths and none should be treated with equal weight outside of their own traditions. It was a much tougher path as an adult - I had to want it. Lots don't want it and don't make the effort, and so out communities remain segregated.

That's one of the reasons I have such a problem with faith schools. We intentionally segregate our children to a certain extent along faith lines. So school populations do not reflect their local communities - you have schools that are disproportionately Christian, and schools that are disproportionately other religions/none. (And the Christian schools that practise faith selection, especially the CofE ones, are disproportionately white and disproportionately well off, creating further social segregation.)

My other main issue with faith schools is that I don't think the state should fund the teaching as fact of things that aren't based in evidence. Basically, I think state schools should be a neutral place for all students.

Teach them how to think, not what to think. I would hope no-one would find this approach problematic?

Errol said it better, with 90% fewer words.

Sorry, skipped to the end without reading this very long thread. I think the conversation between a theist and an atheist can only be worthwhile if they each respect the other. I come from a culture where we always debated to win and that is really such a waste of time and lack of respect. (I even gave up being vegetarian when I was young because every day I had to debate the rights and wrongs of it, grrr).

I am a theist but would see red if someone were to imply that atheists have no moral code as my mother was an atheist and was one of the most moral people I have ever known.

My brother is a Muslim and says that he has more in common with atheists than with Christians.

Isittheholidaysyet, I am Christian but do feel differently to you about how we represent faith to our dc (there's a conversation about this on the other thread linked.) I'm very much of the viewpoint that I teach my children how to think, question, decide for themselves and therefore from an early age have taught them that people believe different things or nothing, this surely is the basis of tolerance and respect. It's not that I haven't brought up my dc in my faith - they have been involved in church and various Christian activities all their lives, and I would love them to remain in faith because I have found it so life enriching and liberating. But I do not want my dc to have a forced faith or a faith which relies on not asking questions. I want them to be thoughtful, curious, intelligent, questioning and choose for themselves. Thus we've always said that we believe this, you can choose if you want to. Both of them are teens and Christians and say that they really appreciate the way we always gave them both information and choice.

I'm not at all saying I'm 'right', just really interested as to how you see your dc forming faith and the whole catch them early thing just doesn't sit quite right with me - for me, if they are not free agents in their own decision forming about matters of faith then that faith would be worth little. How old are your dc out of interest?

I'm not Catholic so also don't recognise the rather prescriptive rules you talk of like being excused from mass in certain circumstances - I do kind of get that people are being called to commitment and that's really important. Do you ever find folk are resentful about that or does it seem to work? Genuinely interested

Re faith schools, some choose not to use faith criteria I think, like a local school where I lived where the intake was 99% Muslim (c of e school) so that very much reflected the area. I tend to agree with jassy that segregating on faith grounds is divisive and wrong and for me pretty much in opposition to what Jesus meant by loving one's neighbour. I understand that faith schools have a good (mainly) history in that they were set up so that all could access education, they were very radical for including the poor, but I do think their entrance criteria needs looking at really.

I can't understand people not wanting their children to know as much as possible about as many things as possible. And I am a little surprised to come across such a very strict Catholic- I am of an age when Catholics were not permitted to go into non Catholic churches, and were discouraged from having non Catholic friends, but I thought things were generally not so rigid any more.

The origins of CofE church schools had an agenda which was doubtless considered virtuous in its day https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NationalSocietyyforPromotinggReligiousEducationn__ but which many would now find unacceptable.
_
Re faith schools, some choose not to use faith criteria I think, like a local school where I lived where the intake was 99% Muslim (c of e school) so that very much reflected the area._

Those which are diverse are often not so by choice. Those which are Voluntary Controlled weren't allowed to discriminate by faith until changes to the 2010 Equality Act. I've only just read that (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryy_controlledschool) so dont know the details and if many now actually do but sounds like an extraordinary change for an Equality act..

Voluntary Aided schools will have a priority list (as do all schools) which determines the pecking order. These vary - often it prioritises children living in the parish, but then children whose parents attend that church, followed by those who attend other churches (generally mainstream protestant). However, the list is only of any real relevance if the school is oversubscribed. And faith schools are not all high performing.

I've found a report www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32587694 of one school which has dropped the 'faith' (actually of course, church attendance) criterion, good for them!

(This post is showing with random underlining, not sure why, apols if it is like that when posted)

Atenco: "My brother is a Muslim and says that he has more in common with atheists than with Christians."

That's a very striking thing to say - has he explained why he thinks that?

It seems to have buggered my links, the last one should be www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32587694

I thought so too. It's certainly my experience with the Catholics I know, and actually the pope reflects these principles of justice and freedom really well. I like him

I remember going to a Catholic mass when I was about 18 and being outraged that I wasn't allowed to take the Eucharist, I am confirmed c of e so assumed it would be fine but I actually felt really left out by that. may have been precocious teen at time is it still the case, holidays?

I have my nieces and nephews have been brought up without any knowledge of other religions or the idea of atheism.
My niece was 13 when she found out that not everyone had the same faith as her family.

Questioning, seeing other people's view points, deciding what you think for yourself.
Of course this has to be done. Christianity has to be chosen by each person.
But a six year old is not capable of that.
An 11 year old struggles.
I make my kids do all sorts of things they don't want to and don't agree with. Clean teeth, shower, wear clothes, turn off the TV, go to bed, be nice to their siblings and friends, stop fighting, not just eat sweets, for example.
If I let them choose and do what they wanted I think Social services would have something to say.
As they become older of course they will take on more of these things themselves, because they will have been indoctrinated into knowing it is the best way to live.

Doesn't everyone do that?

(My eldest is 12, btw.)

(madhair Basically Mass is the most important thing catholics do. There is no resentment because Sunday Mass is how catholics worship. We want to be there.

I suppose it's like evangelical churches recommending that you find a church community and stick with it and get involved, rather than fliting from church to church every week.)

Jassy thanks you for your answers. So did I read you right? You are trying to teach that all faiths and non-faiths and world views are equally valid?
And do you believe you can teach 'neutral'?
Is that not a philosophical view of its own?

(Think I'm going to be without Internet for a lot of today. They are doing work on it. Sorry if I don't get back to people)

Isit-I'm not needy, I promise- but are you deliberately ignoring my posts?

Bert I am of an age when Catholics were not permitted to go into non Catholic churches, and were discouraged from having non Catholic friends

I think this raises the question of tradition and is religion a reflection of culture or packaged into it.

I would have guessed we were broadly similar in age (50s?) and I don't recognise this at all - its the opposite of my experience. But I'm very aware that even within the UK RC traditions vary hugely, often reflecting cultures of migrant antecedants. Much of what we ascribe to religion is a reflection of local tribal and patriarchal cultures rather than reflective of the core values.

c8 I saw your NC comment a while back. Didn't understand it sorry.

Sorry - there was a big neo-cat movement growing up and they were invariably described as the NCs trying to out RC the RCs and I'd thought it was commoner terminology.

I would send my kids to a neo-cat school about as willingly as a creationist evangelist school (I care less about what they believe than the limited and cultish outlook)

My local town is home to a large state run secondary school campus.
Fairly new, purpose built a few years ago.

It houses two schools in one. The state non denominational and the RC secondaries. A total of 2000 kids.

Some facilities are shared, such as gym facilities, all weather pitches, swimming pool,staff car park, dining room.

The pupils and staff do not mix. There are no shared activites. The playgrounds are divided by a six foot high wire fence.
The dining hall is split down the middle by moveable room dividers so the pupils cannot sit with each other. Same with exams. same subject, dividers brought in.

Bell times are staggered to stop kids fighting against each other on the way home from school.
These kids are living in the same community and divided because of religion.

Fucking disgraceful.

I'm mid-50s, and grew up in a Nonconformist family - congregational, became URC. The wider family included CofE, methodists, baptists. Our NDNs were RC, no sign of being discounted from fraternizing. DF was a deacon/elder and on the local Council of Churches - he came home one evening sad to say that the new Baptist pastor had said the Catholics shouldn't be included and that if they weren't excluded then he'd withdraw his church... obviously the other denominations didn't betray their Catholic friends, so the local Baptists were out of ecumenical events until they got a new chap. I remember special events with everyone participating - there was a jolly day out which featured a nuns v bishops tug of war.

I think the various protestants and catholics saw each other as well, a bit different and maybe getting some things not quite right but all 'on the side of the angels'. If I'd never left home and this nice bubble, I might be a Christian yet.