Is it possible for atheists and theists to discuss their world views without one ooh t of view or the other feeling anything along a scale from dissatisfied to furious?

[BertrandRussell]

Theists get patronising, then defensive, atheists get exasperated, then angry. Is there another way? Or is it just completely impossible and not even worth trying?

That is, of course, if her bias arose out of religious belief, rather than from her own personal experience as a mother bringing up a child with Down's.

Yes, it's like when people attribute beliefs to atheists. Antheiss can, and do, believe practicaly anyrhing. Just so long as they don't believe in a god or gods.

It makes someone's views easy to dismiss.

Do you mean a "I have a religious belief and am pro life, thus atheists must be provided choice" kind of thing?

Pro choice.

Yes, I think so. People seem to think that atheists all hold very socially liberal views. And that atheist is somehow the opposite of Christian.....

People seem to think that atheists all hold very socially liberal views. And that atheist is somehow the opposite of Christian....

These are both very good points. Atheists as a group share literally only one characteristic, and that's not believing in any gods. Outside of that you've got all sorts. Some liberal, some conservative, some nice, some arses, some clever, some dim, some hardworking, some lazy.

And I can say exactly the same for people of most religions that I've come across.

Checking into thread as atheist, just reading it all through now.

For example, Richard Dawkins is a misogynist arsehole.

I have no conception of atheists as somehow opposite to Christians - I agree with your post, Jassy. It's just people with their wide range of views and experiences and cultural understanding and environment and everything else. Framing atheism/belief as in opposition doesn't work because of this - and just ends up 'othering' or setting up one as better. As a Christian I have no compunction to do that whatsoever. I have no idea of myself as better or more moral or good. I just have a faith which brings me a lot of joy, I share it if people ask me to and don't if they don't. But I'm not very different to many of you, really

Bertrand

(Sorry trying to deal with kids activities and bedtimes)

Atheism in catholic school:
God is not real.
You don't have to go to church on Sunday.
It doesn't matter how you behave as long as you are nice to everyone.

Now obviously many people think God doesn't exist. In this country you are free not to go Church. People believe that any behaviour between two adults is OK as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

But my children are being brought up as catholics, not atheists or secularists (or humanists or muslims or hindus etc etc). I have sent them to a Catholic school for this reason.

So Catholics know God exists. Any suggestion that he doesn't is against that. You wouldn't teach children about the earth being spherical by introducing the flat earth theory. You just teach what is true.

If you are a Catholic, you have to go to church on Sunday. (Unless ill, housebound, working (But you should not take a job which means you can never attend Church).)
To suggest otherwise is not Catholic.

A Catholic's behaviour matters. Even when they are alone. Even if what they are doing isn't seen by anyone or affecting anyone.

These are some for a starting point.

As soon as you get into the doubt of 'some people think...' that is bringing atheism and agnosticism into the teaching.

At some point as the kids grow, beliefs different to our own need to be discussed. Of course that happens. (My kids, like many, spend half their life on TV and YouTube. They have non christian friends. They attend non-Christian clubs).
But you teach your beliefs until they are secure.

Once a child has a mature understanding of how the earth works and it's place in the universe they are able to understand why the idea of a flat earth is ridiculous.

So do you not want your children to even know that there are non Catholics in the world? How do you manage that if they watch TV? Isn't the usual process in Catholic schools "Some people believe this-but we believe that"?

And is every child in the school a Catholic? If not, if, for example, my child (because of the ridiculous admissions procedures) ended up in your school, would you want him to be told that the Catholic faith is the only true faith?

isittheholidaysyet

Your post makes me sad But you teach your beliefs until they are secure.

I find that horrific.

Manipulation of young minds until the hardwiring is solid.

As soon as you get into the doubt of 'some people think...' that is bringing atheism and agnosticism into the teaching.

No, it really isn't. It's factual. In the world, and in this country, some people believe in different paths to the Abrahamic god, some believe in different gods, some don't believe in any gods. That's not introducing atheism or agnosticism as alternatives to belief - it's stating a fact about the world in which they live - that not everyone believes the same things or thinks the same way as they do. (Are you as unhappy about the school saying some believe in Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam?)

I am however amazed that a Catholic school is apparently teaching that 'god isn't real'. Given they have special permission to teach that their conception of God is factual, it seems very odd that they would squander it. In your shoes, had I been privileged enough to have accesa to a school that aligned with my religious values (or lack thereof in my case), I would complain to the school. In my shoes - Well, i abhor faith schools as a concept and that has continued despite DS1 attending one that is in most other ways a perfectly nice school.

Ds1's school (CofE) definitely presents the Christian god as fact and is a bit fast and loose with Old Testament bible stories presented as fact - cue numerous children complaining that Genesis chapter 1 is not consistent with dinosaurs or evolution. I felt quite sorry for the teacher.

Surely no schools should be teaching that God doesn't exist? Or exist for that matter, but I would assume it is taken as read in faith schools.

We all manipulate young minds.

I see faith, as integral to Christian belief. If faith were presented in the same way as established provable, fact, I would feel uncomfortable with this, as it could deny the faith element of Christianity - which I feel is crucially important.

What was the context of the Catholic school teaching that God isn't real?

And is every child in the school a Catholic? If not, if, for example, my child (because of the ridiculous admissions procedures) ended up in your school, would you want him to be told that the Catholic faith is the only true faith?

Welcome to my world, Bertrand. DS1 currently believes in God*, because school says it is true and it is promoted at assembly every day and is in the school values. I can't fight that, and ultimately it's up to him what he chooses to believe in, no matter how much I may dislike and disagree with the brainwashing at school. My job is to make sure he has the skills to critically evaluate information as he grows older and into adulthood - not just on religion, but across the spectrum.

I would hate to feel that I couldn't expose my kids to other ideas or ways of thinking and living in case they chose one of those paths.

*Well, mostly. School's insistence on the existence of a god alongside his keen interest in Roman and Saxon history has introduced an element of confusion. Today he believes in a combination of Norse and Saxon gods because 'they wouldn't have named the days of the week after them if they weren't real.'

"We do not need to be afraid of questions and doubts because they are the beginning of a path of knowledge and going deeper; one who does not ask questions cannot progress either in knowledge or in faith"

Quote from Pope Francis for you isittheholidaysyet. Questioning is a good thing.

Manipulation of young minds until the hardwiring is solid.

Meh, I know a little boy that is a staunch atheist,to the point of having meltdowns or getting told off repeatedly for shouting out "God is not real!", regardless of "some people believe..." or what religion we are talking about. "Mummy and daddy said so".

"I know a little boy that is a staunch atheist,to the point of having meltdowns or getting told off repeatedly for shouting out "God is not real!" What a mannerless brat! But pretty irrelevant because he is one rather than a schoolful.

Oh, and there's no such thing as a staunch atheist.

If you are a Catholic, you have to go to church on Sunday. (Unless ill, housebound, working (But you should not take a job which means you can never attend Church).) To suggest otherwise is not Catholic.

I have never heard a priest or any RC teacher say you should not take a job which requires you to work Sundays . No doctors, nurses, police, social workers or the myriad of other jobs which may be the only option. I've honestly only come across this attitude in the Wee Frees.
Supporting your family and community is important and in that situation you can meet the obligation Saturday night or during the week.

Similarly there is a big difference between raising a child in a faith and blocking them from information about all others.

May I ask which 'brand' or tradition of RC you fall under because its not one I recognise?

we all manipulate young minds

This. Everything we teach a child is manipulation and indoctrination. From how to speak, to cleaning your teeth, to healthy/unhealthy eating, to schooling, to...

Yes I want my child to be taught truth. (As I see it)

Equally everyone else should be able to teach their own children what they know is truth.
(There should be non-religious schools. So parents can have that choice. Then there wouldn't be any need for people who don't want a religious education for their children to have to send them to a religious school. Which would mean no-one would mind religious schools teaching religion.)

Bertrand It's more the attitude that many teachers in catholic schools have that 'now we have to do that God stuff, to keep the governors and the parents happy, when obviously we don't believe it'.
So although they don't say God isn't real, it's taught in a way that makes it obviously that that's what the teachers really think.

My children do not live in a religious bubble, far from it. It's not possible in this country (and their dad, my DH is not catholic,) But would i love to provide that if it was possible? Yes.

I have a question back which I have always wondered but never dared ask.

If (as I often hear on mn) you believe that your/all children should be brought up to know about all religions, belief systems, non-belief systems and secular world views...

How do you do that without confusing them, and how do you get the knowledge to do it, and how do you prepare them so they are able to believe in a exclusive religion such as Islam or Christianity if they so choose?

(I have a religious studies degree, but I know my knowledge of the religions we studied would only be enough to give a brief introduction to them. Not enough to give enough knowledge for someone to believe in it)