AIBU / When is it dialect and when is it just wrong?

[ecuse]

We live in East London/Essex border. I'm not from here originally. My little girl (6) has an East London accent. I expect this, this is where she is from, it's fine, in fact it suits her.

But she's all with the "you woz", "we woz", "wozzn't you, mummy?". I understand she picks this up from her whole peer group. BUT. When I go into school for reading morning etc etc I realise all 4 of the teachers she has had so far say "you woz" etc.

AIBU to think that teachers should not do this? They are teaching her literacy and that's just gramatically incorrect.

I don't think I'd ever have the bottle to bring it up but AIBU to be vexed, or am I just being all Hyacinth Bucket about it? Is it legitimate dialect or is it just wrong?

Yes, see previous posts.

The difficulty with swapping around the the tenses of the verb is that when you come to learn a foreign language it doesn't make sense. We studied Latin, which was a help with understanding how language works (and made the Romance languages much easier to learn).

coastal, as you learn more than the basics of a foreign language (or, dare we imagine, plural foreign languages!) you will become familiar with such shifts.

It's amazing, but not all languages operate using the same grammar!

Some of them even resemble English dialects considered less reputable than standard English!

SwissChristian Mom is the form of Mum that is used in many parts of the West Midlands/Black Country.

I'm amazed that people still don't know this. I've barely spent any time in the West Midlands and yet even I know they use 'mom' instead of 'mum'. But on MN it's always referred to as evidence of creeping Americanisms.

English really is missing a collective you. I sometimes use 'yous' but my mother favours 'ye'. I also say haitch when the fancy takes me (yeah, what you gonna do about it?)

'You was' though would be nails down a blackboard territory for me, legitimate dialect or not.

Wish my 6th form were on mumsnet. This is revision gold for Tuesday's exam.

My DS will be reading it in the morning!

Yes Swiss I understand the evolution of language argument. John Malkovich, oddly, did an interesting talk somewhere about ebonics being part of that - the pronounciation of escape as excape and ask as aks for example.

But living in the midst of it changing, where do you draw the line between rolling your eyes at someone saying expresso and saying to yourself, 'my that person is so MODERN'?

Anyway OP, Marcus Aurelius said something like 'you shouldn't correct someone whose grammar is incorrect, you should just keep modelling the correct form back at them and it'll sink in. Innit.' So just keep reinforcing the right words with your children without taking away from their teachers' authority if you can.

Child, sorry OP, not children.

Old Vaugelas is alive and kicking.

The line draws itself, Abernathy.

And anyway, what is "expresso" if not an adapted borrowing?

Where I live the children are known for "I will learn you that" "My Mam learnt me how to do that"
And it's not just one or two of them it's at least 20 of them

At first I didn't say anything but then my dc copied them so I correct them every time now

In Glasgow they say 'I seen'.

You're not a snob. The teachers need to speak standard English, no matter what their accent is. Their grammar is wrong.

DD2 managed to pick up such a thick local accent from her elementary school teachers that when she went off to university in another region, many of her fellow students couldn't understand her even though she speaks and writes Standard American English. She is the only one of my 5 DCs who picked up the local accent.

I've heard teached being used in a sentence as in "I wasn't teached that at school" and tret as in "my friends ex-boyfriend tret her badly".

Tabula, regional variation I suspect with the use of yous/youse.

Pedro, the confusion with taught and learnt is common here, as is 'he borrowed me' instead of 'he lent'. Aaargh.

I could of ignored this thread (see what I done there?) but as I learnt my kids, speaking and writing reasonable English has not done no one no harm. People need it if they want jobs what are sort after. 🙄

Wish my 6th form were on mumsnet. This is revision gold for Tuesday's exam
Same!
Useful revision:

• the difference between accent and dialect
• that RP has so much prestige attached people actually think it's the correct accent to have
• inability of people to grasp that it's not about correct vs incorrect. It is standard and nonstandard systems. There is a time and a place for both.
• Prescriptivism and descriptivism
• General attitudes to langauge

Revision gold!

But maybe I shouldn't be teaching all of this because I don't have a correct accent

My pet hate is 'I've wrote' not 'I've written' - my son's teacher uses this, who is right?

I think for little children who are learning to read and write it's important to model grammatically correct language

Teenagers need to learn that context is everything and that it's ok to speak one way to your mates and a different way to your parents, and to write in a different way again.

Right and wrong doesn't enter into it: teachers should be able to make it clear that Standard/Written English is a dialect/sociolect in its own right and that this is one they are expected to master. No need to apply value judgments: it's just about whether they are getting enough practice in something that will make a difference to their chances in life.

I don't care at all that my ds speaks with the SE glottal stop on an everyday basis, but he has to be able to recognise the letter t, insert it in the correct places in writing ,and understand that there are certain situations where it helps being able to say it. Just like there are situations where it helps to put on a suit and tie. (Even Jeremy Corbyn has finally wised up to that one)

We're a bilingual family anyway, and I don't think a bit of diglossia does any harm. But like bilingualism it needs to be a conscious exercise.

Risking flaming here but...
If children are not taught correct grammar in school, then it becomes a form of social exclusion. To access top grades, good further education, and good jobs requires an ability to use grammatically correct written English and, whether you like it or not, an ability to adapt your speech to the circumstances in which you find yourself. If you deny this to children by allowing incorrect grammar to stand, you are, on average, restricting their chances of social mobility.

I entirely agree that children can have a range of accents and indeed dialects, but they must be taught the use of Standard English.
Otherwise you are ensuring that they cannot access a range of opportunities. Most children are capable of using different forms of language and accent in different situations - as long as they know that's what's required.

I agree that it's about teaching the skills to be flexible with language use. I often use Scots dialect but I'm fluent in standard English and I know when is appropriate use either one.

Tabula, "Ah wahnt" 'ae be a princess daen't ah no" (as coined by the wee girl next door) is not any form of "Scots" I want my children to speak! "Yous" are wee sheep's maws.

Flying Elbows I just love your explanation of yous. That word sets my teeth on edge even more so when said by a teacher. It is probably a shade worse than Ah seen and ah done

"Yous" are wee sheep's maws"

Except they're yowes in my teuchter version of Scots so it works fine. Lol