AIBU / When is it dialect and when is it just wrong?

[ecuse]

We live in East London/Essex border. I'm not from here originally. My little girl (6) has an East London accent. I expect this, this is where she is from, it's fine, in fact it suits her.

But she's all with the "you woz", "we woz", "wozzn't you, mummy?". I understand she picks this up from her whole peer group. BUT. When I go into school for reading morning etc etc I realise all 4 of the teachers she has had so far say "you woz" etc.

AIBU to think that teachers should not do this? They are teaching her literacy and that's just gramatically incorrect.

I don't think I'd ever have the bottle to bring it up but AIBU to be vexed, or am I just being all Hyacinth Bucket about it? Is it legitimate dialect or is it just wrong?

"Teachers, especially of young children, need to model good grammar, diction, and accent."

There's no such thing as a GOOD accent Erica. Any native accent is as good as another.

Ecuse in the example you give, you have still modelled 'you were' instead of 'you was'. It is all about building blocks. From experience with my own DS, repetition rather than correction seems to work far better. He often repeats what I have said (correctly) when he understands what he says was incorrect.

It's wrong.

Dialect is bath/barth or mom not mum.

I don't agree that teachers should be modelling standard english in terms of accent, local pronunciations, local phrases actually. but basic grammar is important. As an SLT I would never attempt to correct accent, phrases used locally etc.

mom/mum is not dialect - they belong to two different standard languages.

Both as valid as each other.

Each dialect has its own grammar, vocabulary, etc.

SwissChristian Mom is the form of Mum that is used in many parts of the West Midlands/Black Country.

Well said swiss.
Oddly enough Standard English only came about because of massive linguistic change.

But the view that context is everything isn't popular on MN where it's considered great to pull people up for how they type whilst having such little knowledge of language development over time that narrow ideas of 'right vs wrong' are seen as being more educated than everyone else.

I'll stick with not judging people by their dialect unless they are using dialect language in situations when it should really be formal standard English.

Completely agree with Gwen, there are no good or bad accents!

Oh spiff, I didn't know that! Dialect too then

@MaisyPops do you mean a situation like a teacher, teaching a class of primary students? If so, that's exactly the situation the OP was describing.

GreatFuckabikity as SLT you should be picking up on staff not modelling grammatically accurate language to children, Ofsted certainly do. Accent no, but dialect should not be modelled, at least not during teaching time.

claraelsa
Dialect is bath/barth

No it's not. This is why language threads get on my nerves.

Accent is HOW somebody PRONOUNCES things.
Dialect is the different grammatical structures and words specific to a region.

It's perfectly possible to speak in standard English with a regional accent.

We were expected to speak correctly at home and our parents gently corrected us when we did not. We were not allowed to use 'ain't', 'me and XX', double negatives, or misconjugate verbs. I still remember my dad, when I would say "Can I go to XX's house?", would always look me up and down and reply "Well, you certainly look capable of it to me" upon which I would say "May I go?". We turned out all right and have no problem adapting our speech to our audience. I had to do the same with my sons.

Just repeat your daughter's incorrect phrases back 'correctly' with a bit of emphasis and without remarking directly on her error. She'll pick up eventually that she needs to 'touch up her grammar' and she'll be fine.

DD: "Me and Emma woz being a bit naughty there, wozzn't we, Mummy"?
YOU: "Emma and I were being a bit naughty, weren't we, Mummy? Yes, you were or no, you weren't, as appropriate"

Sorry, that was to Claraelsa.

Thanks, Maisypops, was just getting around to that one! Tertiary dialects...

At school we were taught about dialect and colloquialisms. Not at 4, obviously. So I understood why I might say owt or nowt in conversation but it wouldn't be correct in written English unless e.g. a character in a story said it. At 4 or similar when children are learning about literacy it is important that they learn what is correct when written, even if it isn't how they might say it aloud in casual conversation. I don't think that's snobbery, I've got a really broad accent/use of dialect. My whole family do but my Dad still used to correct "hadfot" and "gotfot" when I was younger.

I'm not saying everyone has to speak in the same way but grammar is a huge part of the English curriculum now and as such needs to be modelled through talk.

I was born and grew up in that area and as an adult, a few people have said that I'm well-spoken. My mum just corrected me if I said something the wrong way. I think when I was younger I spoke differently around my friends than I did at home but mostly I spoke correctly. I think you should carry on correcting your dd occasionally and she will learn to adapt her language to suit the audience. The main thing is that she will learn the right way to speak, even if she doesn't always speak that way.

Teachervoice
Teachers in the classroom should model standard English in my opinion (and I say that as someone with regional dialect elements of my own langauge).

Students should be taught standard English and when it is/isn't appropriate to use regional langauge. (E.g. I'll tell my students what I might say out of work and explain why we all need standard English at school).

I just don't like the snobby views of 'right vs wrong' when it's standard English vs non standard English.

"Here in the NW everything is "them" instead of "those" from teaching staff too. How will children ever learn the correct form to use in their writing?"

From reading of course. Everyone has to learn that the written language is not the same as the spoken language.

GreatFuckabikity as SLT you should be picking up on staff not modelling grammatically accurate language to children, Ofsted certainly do. Accent no, but dialect should not be modelled, at least not during teaching time

I work in a welsh language school, we use dialect'words that, for example those in the north of wales would not. If we had a child with North Walian parents or something who used those words, we wouldn't ever correct, there isn't any need. they are as valid as ours.

How can anyone with a basic understanding of English think the examples in the OP are anything but dialect?

And how can anyone think dialect and accent are the same?

No wonder so many people fail to meet basic standards of English

Yes, I agree but think the issue is probably that unless you've really studied language or have been taught to teach language to children, people find it quite difficult to differentiate between correct/ incorrect or regional dialect.

I don't think it's malicious in a lot of cases, just that people often think that the 'right' way of speaking is the way they were taught. Does that make sense?