Ex taking DC abroad to Tunisia

[Eilasor]

Ex is Tunisian living in an EU country. DC have been visiting him twice a year and he has been visiting us in England once a year for the 5 years of their lives. DC have met ex's mother and a couple of cousins once, but apart from that haven't met any of his family. Hence why Ex wants DC this accompany him to a family reunion/gathering in Tunisia in September. It doesn't sit right with me (I think I am being unreasonable, probably), it doesn't seem like a safe place to travel to and I'm terrified of simply allowing my children out of the EU without me. I don't know what to do. I want to be fair and understanding, but the idea of it really upsets and unsettles me. AIBU?

Well, part of the point of the thread is the likelihood of abduction by the father. So I think it's relevant to point out that the Tunisian legal system is quite different from European ones in this respect.

Tunisia is a country that has not signed the Hague Convention on Abduction. Where a judge can determine whether the child should live with the father or the mother, depending on the child's best interests (and, given that it is a Muslim country, I suspect that the courts will judge the best interests to lie with the Muslim side of the family). Where if the OP has remarried, Tunisian law does not allow her children to live with her.

And moreover, the Foreign Office recommends not travelling there because it's dangerous.

For me, it's a no-brainer.

DistanceCall- spot on

StatelessPrincess- it's hardly hilarious get a grip

Distance I've been told that the foreign office recommendations are to do with the situation in Libya. Given that there were lots of European tourists in Tunisia last year and even more this year, with nothing happening, I'm inclined to believe that. Something doesn't add up anyway as there hasn't been a terrorist attack there since 2015. Tunisia is a Muslim majority country but it doesn't have Islamic law, they're also pretty desperate at the moment to make the country look better to the British so are unlikely to award custody of kidnapped children to a Tunisian man who isn't even normally a Tunisian resident and doesn't have primary custody of the children anyway. For me it's also a no brainer but admittedly I have relatives there and have visited multiple times a year my whole life- so I'm looking at it from a very different perspective to the OP and other posters on this thread. I'm not trying to start a fight, just offer my opinion as someone who knows the country well.

I have full PR for all 3 children, but he is on birth certificates.

Ex is not Muslim or a 'traditional' Tunisian at all, he isn't fond of the country or its traditions - but obviously loves his family. Hence why he is seeking citizenship in his EU country of residence. It would be the family, not my ex, that I'd be concerned about. Especially with my children's "lack of faith" (which I know will be an issue with his parents, but I honestly hadn't considered the possibility that they may try to keep them in Tunisia).

Children speak French (Tunisian family speak French also), German and English at present. We've been focusing on those languages before incorporating Arabic at a later stage as speech development was slowing. This also may be a problem with his family.

Does anyone know if I would be able to remove them from the country if I accompanied them to travel, but he for some reason wanted to keep them there? This is so unlikely, and I'll do my own research of course, but if anyone has a quick response it'd be appreciated.

I'm pretty much convinced that there's no way I'll be allowing them to go, and thank you so much for informing me. Also, whoever said DH needs to pull his head out of his arse and help me decide is absolutely right.

User hysterical doesn't just mean funny, I certainly don't think it's funny.

The father is a Tunisian citizen. If he decides to abscond with the children (a) Tunisia is under no obligation to return the children to Britain, as it is not a signatory of the Hague Convention on Abduction, and, (b) even if the matter were brought to the courts, it's doubtful that the OP would be given the right to take the children to live with her again in Britain.

Of course, Tunisian policy may be changing. But that's the law for the time being. Would I take the gamble of sending my children there in these circumstances? Would I fuck.

Stateless - I really appreciate hearing your view. I'm trying not to be irrational/potentially racist/islamaphobic and to distinguish between fact and scaremongering.

He question you need to ask yourself is do you want to risk not seeing your children again until they are 18 weighed up against annoying an XH and in laws you don't know.
Even if you got them back it could take years, cost thousands and you'd have no control over how they were raised or educated in the meantime. I'd not let him take them out if the country even to Disneyland. Idk if you can find out if they've been us Tunisian passports but I'd certainly be trying to find out on Monday.

*issued Tunisian passports that should say.

OP are they born in uk? As the father had automatic PR if he's on the birth certificate.

Has*

I would not say yes to this because I think whatever the letter of the law says, you would be fighting a long drawn out battle to get them back. It isn't scaremongering - this is exactly how 99% of child abductions happen.

Feeling vaguely guilty that young DC wouldn't recognise distant relatives versus perhaps never seeing them again?

^^ This.

If he says he'll pay, find the super-duper insurance that you can includes evacuation in under 2 hours etc: I'm fairly certain he will not spend 4 or 5 figures on insurance for each child
Goodness what sort of insurance is this? Access to an SAS team special rescue mission I never knew such things existed!

butterfly thats so tragically sad.

You have no idea of the wider family or their strength of will or want. My mil is a v strong character with family over seas in Hague convention countries and yet I bet in half a chance she would throw her morals aside and try and take our DC....

Yes I agree the wider family could be very different to how you imagine and I imagine the fact that the children are not being raised Muslim will be a massive concern to some family members.

Eilasor Thanks, I'm pretty sure that if he wanted to abduct your children he would have already done it, however I don't know him and neither does anyone on this thread. If you have any doubts about trusting him then don't let them go.

Stateless - I'm pretty sure HE doesn't want to abduct our children until a year ago he was barely capable of being a father 3 weeks a year, but I suppose I don't know anything. I don't know him all that well anymore and his family could have bigger influence on him than I anticipate.

Namey - it is a big problem. Ex isn't Muslim himself, though (big big problem). Children are being raised without a religion.

user - no, they weren't born in the UK.

He would be more likely to want custody of our children in order to strengthen his citizenship application for unspecified EU country, than to abduct them to Tunisia. The man I know would rather die than have to move back there. But people change, I guess.

It's times like this I wish I still had a faith and a god to ask for guidance.

The bit that would concern me the most is the link up thread that seems to say that in Tunisia DC can't live with their mother if she has re-married, which the OP has. Please look into whether that means that if your ex or his family want to keep your DC with him in Tunisia he can.

Eilasor I don't think there's many Tunisians that would think it better for children to be brought up there than in a European country to be honest. I hope you figure it out Btw some of my relatives also live on the coast just south east of Tunis, if you have any questions on that area or anything else please feel free to pm me.

stateless pretty sure he wouldn't abduct her children, really? I'm pretty sure you could run across the M1 at 4am and not be squished by a truck but would you risk that?

Stateless - I'll probably take you up on that offer after I've had some more time to think and process some more. I really appreciate your insight. After I know the desperation my ex felt to leave/stay out of Tunisia, I can't imagine him deciding to live there just to keep our children - but I can't shake this uneasy feeling.

Absolutely not. They are very young for a whole week away from you to spend time with complete strangers and a father they rarely see.
Abduction would also cross my mind too. Although a small risk, it would be bloody difficult to get them back.
Finally, seeing as the Foreign Office still does not recommend travel for UK citizens, I can't see why you'd even contemplate the idea.

Lynnm63 But the OP already has risked it, the children already visit him outsIde the UK. If the children don't have Tunisian passports he can obtain them from the nearest Tunisian embassy, it's not hard and it wouldn't be hard to take them out of that EU country to Tunisia. He hasn't though. I did say though that if the OP has any doubts as to whether she can trust him then she shouldn't, but she knows him, we don't. Most men don't abduct their children.

Eilasor feel free, I'm happy to help. I think there's been a bit of scaremongering on this thread but always trust your gut.

Above all else follow your gut, you've allowed other holidays and it's been fine you feel in easy about this one for a reason, even if your not completely sure what the reason is .

As a couple of other posters have stated, due to the FCO advice you will not be able to get travel insurance and there will be no consular assistance. This is important not only in the very unlikely case of terrorism but for anything - a car crash, broken leg, etc. Could you afford the costs of medical care and repatriation back to the UK?

I had this argument discussion with dh about 18 months ago when he wanted to go to a similar country to speak at a conference. He was adamant I was over reacting. Eventually we agreed he could go on the understanding that:

1. In the event of him becoming sick or injured he knew I would not fly out to be with him. I couldn't have both of us out there and the children at home.
2. That he left advice as to what assets he would want sold, and in what order, to cover the costs of any medical bills and repatriation in the unlikely (but by no means impossible) event that he was sick or injured. The list started with his motorbike and ended with the family home and he had to tell me where, if anywhere he would draw the line and not want further assets sold.

Funnily enough, that brought him round.

Anyway, that's a bit of a distraction, but you get the drift. Regardless of threat of terrorism or abduction, I wouldn't do it solely for the above reason.