Ex taking DC abroad to Tunisia

[Eilasor]

Ex is Tunisian living in an EU country. DC have been visiting him twice a year and he has been visiting us in England once a year for the 5 years of their lives. DC have met ex's mother and a couple of cousins once, but apart from that haven't met any of his family. Hence why Ex wants DC this accompany him to a family reunion/gathering in Tunisia in September. It doesn't sit right with me (I think I am being unreasonable, probably), it doesn't seem like a safe place to travel to and I'm terrified of simply allowing my children out of the EU without me. I don't know what to do. I want to be fair and understanding, but the idea of it really upsets and unsettles me. AIBU?

Nope, nope, nope.

Don't let your ex take your children out of the civilised world. Countries that don't give mothers their children back = not civilised.
If there's even one story of that country not returning abducted children to their mother, I'd not let him take them there.

Your not being worried about abduction means shit all. No one expects it, obviously. No woman would get involved with a man if she knew in advance he'd be that sort of person.

And then there's the fact that he intends to take them to a country that's officially too dangerous to travel there. No responsible adult would do that, surely.
Would make me reconsider his ability of making responsible decisions.

Not the point of this thread, but to whoever said upthread that Tunis is closer to London than Rome, it isn't.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was rather baffled by that claim.

I mean, I heard Americans have no idea where countries are, but this being a British forum, I can't believe someone wouldn't know where Rome is.

I don't think i would tbh.

I would not be happy to have my kids going to a country where should the family decide they should stay, I as a mother have no rights and would be unable to bring them home.

I think yanbu at the current time. Who is it it particularly wants them to meet? His father? Siblings? Would it be possible for him to have some of his relatives visit him and you take the children over at the same time? He could contribute to their flights with the money he would have spent going there?

No. I'd not them go. Best case scenario they're in a Country that's not safe for a few days, worst case scenario he refuses to return them.

Has anyone got a credible link that says that Tunisia is a party to the Hague Convention? Because Googling is coming up with they aren't.

No, I wouldn't want them to go at this age for a few reasons. The FCO guidelines being the one I'd use to justify my decision to the Ex.

If DCs grandparents want to see them (which is understandable), then they will need to visit their son in his country of residence whilst the DCs are with him.

There will be plenty of opportunity for the DCs to visit family in Tunisia when they are older, if they want to.

Here is the list of countries that have signed the Hague Convention on Abduction, by the Hague organisation itself:

www.hcch.net/en/instruments/conventions/status-table/?cid=24

Apparently, Tunisia has signed some Hague Convention agreements, but not that one.

No. I'd not them go. Best case scenario they're in a Country that's not safe for a few days, worst case scenario he refuses to return them

Lynnm63. This. Sums it up perfectly. Feeling vaguely guilty that young DC wouldn't recognise distant relatives versus perhaps never seeing them again? Doesn't require a millisecond of agonising over.

In that case, absolutely not. @DistanceCall thanks.

Most definitely not a chance in hell that I would send my precious children to that unstable country. Ref. FO advice.
Also, there are far too many examples of children being abducted by estranged family members.
That's a big NO from me then.

No. I'd not them go. Best case scenario they're in a Country that's not safe for a few days, worst case scenario he refuses to return them

This.

I definitely wouldn't agree to this.
Against FCO advice.
Probably couldn't get travel insurance.
If he did decide to keep them there you would probably never see them again.
You only see him three times a year, you don't know him inside out, you don't know that he wouldn't keep them.

If you think there is any chance he may abduct them I would not let them go.
As far as I have been told, and I have Tunisian relatives, if he is Tunisian he has to travel into Tunisia on a Tunisian passport. Thus your ex will have to get Tunisian passports for them.
The same applies to the children. They will have to have Tunisian passports to enter the country. Any child of a Tunisian parent will automatically be considered to have Tunisian nationality irrespective of where they are born.
Thus another country, such as the U.K., cannot intervene as the children will be Tunisian nationals also Tunisia is not signatory to The Hague Convention.
It is possible to have dual nationality so your children can have both British (or another country) and Tunisian passports however Tunisia will not accept this.
I hope I am not alarming you but I do think this is something you need to be aware of.

This might be of interest:

www.tunisianloverats.com/threads/tunisian-law-child-children-kids-with-a-tunisian-husband-or-wife.2135/

For example, a Muslim father always has the right to determine the place of residence for his children. As a result, a child cannot leave the country, even not together with its mother, without the written approval of the father.

The insurance - which you'll need to get from a specialist - will be pretty hefty, even for a week (when I need to go somewhere like this, it's around £300 ish for a week, with plenty of exclusions) : you could just say that you can't afford it, and that it doesn't sit right with you not to have it.

If he says he'll pay, find the super-duper insurance that you can includes evacuation in under 2 hours etc: I'm fairly certain he will not spend 4 or 5 figures on insurance for each child.

I'd go to Tunisia, but I'm not sure I'd be happy for 2 small children to go: plus, how fluent in Arabic/Amazight/their father's mother tongue are they?

Please be careful, I don't think Tunisia is a signatory to The Hague Convention on Child Abduction so if he keeps the children you will be in a very difficult position. I don't think you can rely on the fact that he hasn't done anything before, I believe some Muslims (I know it can vary and is cultural as well as religious) think children should be with the mother for the first few years but then should be with the father so I would be worried that he may think they need to be with his family now.

There is an organiation, I think it is called Reunite, for mothers who have had their children abducted abroad by partners. Could you maybe get advice from them?

Has anyone got a credible link that says that Tunisia is a party to the Hague Convention? Because Googling is coming up with they aren't.

Sorry, I stand corrected. I misunderstood a webpage.

I haven't RTFT.

However, your ex may already have Tunisian passports for your children. You need to find out if he does. If you are worried about your Ed abducting your children, you need to ask that electronic tags are placed on their passports (both UK and Tunisian); this should flag it if he ever tried to remove them from the country without you knowing. You need to do this ASAP because if he's already thinking of taking them he could do so on the next visitation - he would not need to ask your permission for them to go on an airplane as it currently stands.

Please talk to someone on Monday morning - probably the FCO would be the best bet and ask their advice on what to do.

YADNBU.

For example, a Muslim father always has the right to determine the place of residence for his children. As a result, a child cannot leave the country, even not together with its mother, without the written approval of the father In Tunisian law a woman, regardless of her nationality can take her half tunisian children out of Tunisia without their father's permission. This law came into effect last year I believe or maybe the year before.
gilly I wasn't talking about child abductions I was talking about the fact that Tunisia is no more dangerous from a terrorism point of view than England, with the exception of the borders which are nowhere near where the OP's children have relatives.

Yes, Tunisian women can travel with their children without their father's permission.

nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2015/11/17/tunisian-women-now-legally-allowed-to-travel-with-their-kids-without-dads-permission/

The OP is not Tunisian, though. And I take it that she's not a Muslim either.

Sorry that should say Tunisian children, not half, as the law applies to Tunisian women too and all children with Tunisian fathers and mothers of another nationality are still automatically Tunisian citizens.

Distance The law applies to women who are not Tunisian too

Still:

Although Tunisia has one of the most progressive personal status laws in the region, the personal status code still contains discriminatory provisions. [...] Article 58 of the personal status code gives judges the discretion to grant custody to either the mother or the father based on the best interests of the child, but prohibits allowing a mother to have her children live with her if she has remarried. No such restriction applies to fathers.

www.hrw.org/news/2015/11/12/tunisia-step-forward-womens-rights

I have a friend who's husband abducted their children In Germany whilst they were visiting his family.

Yes they have the Hague Convention but it took a long time for the case to be processed. She managed to get one child back, but in the mean time she was left with a lot of debts etc.

By the time she was allowed to have the abducted child back a year later (not permanently as the case was still being processed) for a holiday the child did not want to live with Mum anymore. He was used to a certain standard of living that his mum could not afford for him.

She accepted her child's wishes to stay with his Dad.

Distance I wasn't talking about custody I was only talking about travel restrictions and Tunisia's general safety. I really think the OP is the one to judge whether her ex is likely to try and keep their children in Tunisia, rather than strangers on the internet.