To think that its wrong to exclude a toddler from toddler group

[twobabies]

I go to a toddler group on Fridays and last week there was an incident with one of the toddlers I think shes just under two. She had been playing and another child took the toy she had been playing with and she tapped him on the arm. Another child then came and tried to take it and she hit him too. I have never seen this child hit before and she is quite a popular member of the group. The mum of this girl got up told her daughter off and made her cuddle both other children she then apoligised to the other mums and took her child away to a quite part of the room. When she came back to join us the leader of the group came over to her and in front of about 4 other mums told her that there was a "behaviour policy" in the group that if a child hit more than twice they would be asked to leave.... The mum seemed quite embarrased and I was quite embarrased for her. She had done everything she could after the incident and the leader acknowledged that these things do happen but that it was to "stop bad feeling between parents". She then went on to add that "this was only the second time that she had had to tell a mother this and that the first one had started crying, left the group and never came back! This mum then quietly left 10mins later. So do you think I am being unreasonable in thinking that this is a ridiculous policy for a toddler group to have? or is this quite common? I would love to know what you would have done had this been you as the mum seemed quite embarrased and then left. By the way this is my first post so hi to all as well!!!

At my DS nursery they have a policy for biting etc. It goes something like
First aid and cuddles for the victim
Perpetrator told that 'we don't bite / kick whatever'
Serial offenders go on a watch list to make sure that their opportunity to attack others is limited!
Parents made aware of 'watch list' status! But only so that they can buy into the same.

The letter that came with the policy said that the main reason for writing it was to reassure parents that this is common and perfectly normal.

Leave the toddler group (or get yourself expelled )

Blooming rediculous policy IMO!!

Children of that age are still learning the basics of language, some lash out when they are frustrated, confused or upset because they cant express it any other way yet.
To exclude on that basis sends very wrong messages to the child who wont put 2+2 together and will just think mummy is mean for not taking them back the following week!

grrrrr I hate jobsworths

Nowhere near as bad that that poor woman's experience at toddler group, but at the one I go to, the leader spends the whole time muttering about how it's too noisy and tuts and fusses while tidying around the toddlers as they play. She also complains if painting is the craft corner that day as she has to clear up afterwards...Why offer to run a toddler group if you can't stand mess and noise? Tsk...

definitely find another toddler group - the leader's bad behaviour will only rub off on the children

and welcome twobabies!

Is this for real?

Welcome to MN.
The toddler group leader is a prat.

Forgot to mention that they would just be excluded from that session, they are allowed back next week, although I'm not sure many people would take their lo's back after that.

I would leave immediately, and find another place where the leader has a brain.

FGS ! even career criminals get 3 strikes before they are out ! why run a toddler group when you have no understanding of toddlers ! what an odd way to do things. did she expect serried ranks of little ones, sat neatly, saying please and thank you ....

i would find a new play group

I agree with everyone saying that this is a CRAZY policy.

I think you and your friends should all leave the group and go somewhere else in protest.

omg!
Can't believe this... it is so so ridiculous
I would be boiling mad if i saw this at a group i went to.
I would go back...and i'd make a song and dance about it too.
That poor woman who left crying.

I run a toddler group and it had never crossed my mind that I should have any kind of behaviour policy. The toddlers are there with their mums/grannies/carers. My job is to provide activities and refreshments in a safe environment - NOT to discipline them.

I guess if there was a kid who was completely out of control and the mum didn't give a damn, I might say something. But it would have to be pretty extreme.

Hugs to the mum. I hope she finds somewhere nicer to play with her DD.

. with a FFS for good measure. These things happen with toddlers, how dreadful undermining for the mother.

OMG the poor woman, I for one would be out on my ear with my DS, he loves taking swipes at anyone who trys to take his toys off him !

well I wouldnt worry to much with a bloody stupid twatty rule like that the toddler group will be non existent within a few weeks.

I suggest that you print this thread out and (anonymously!) pin it to the toddler group noticeboard.
I also suggest that if you see the mother in question around you make a point of telling her how out of order you think the leader's behaviour was (and that all your MN friends think so too!)

Oh that poor lady. I would be finding out where she lived so I could go round and make sure she was OK. It's not policy at our toddler group. Sounds most strange to me.

And bless you Caligula for getting all worked up about it .

Haven't read all thread, but this is a common policy for toddler groups as recommended by the Pre school learning alliance. When they say the child is asked to leave, they mean FOR THAT SESSION.

I run toddler groups and have had to enforce this rule and there is good reason for it IMO. Whether it has been correctly applied in this case I am not sure. I would have counted the two hits as one incident if it was me. Also I am not sure I would have counted the "tap" at all.

Ds would be out on his ear as well - he's 19months and is really going through a hitting phase at the moment.

Poor poor woman, I came home and cried tonight after the cm mentioned ds' hitting when I picked him up - I can only imagine how she felt in front of all those people.

Ok have now read thread. Phew!

This really is the policy advised by the PreSchool Learning Alliance. If you have experienced prolonged episodes of hitting, biting or kicking in your toddler group you will know why. Repeated incidents like this can divide a group and lead to the children feeling unsafe at the group. The group leaders also have a responsibility to the attendees to ensure their safety, and could in theory be sued if a child was injured by another child, if this was a usual occurence and no action was taken.

The leader is just following what she has been instructed to do by her parent and toddler officer. I feel sorry for her. She gets the blame if children are getting hurt, she gets the blame if she tries to sort it out.

Am I right in thinking that she did not actually ask the parent to remove the child? She just said that if the child hit more than twice she would be asked to leave, but the mother left after a while anyway, is that correct?

Oh it's insane

It's not a usual occurrence in this instance. I can see with a constantly badly behaving child it would be an issue, but with a child who is having an off day, it's just mad. Two instances isn't a usual occurence either.

And there has never been a recorded instance in English law of a case like this being given house-room. This is not America and we don't need bonkers policies like this.

It totally disempowers grown adults from using their common-sense, negotiation skills, diplomacy and common humanity.

"the leader of the group came over to her and in front of about 4 other mums told her that there was a "behaviour policy" in the group that if a child hit more than twice they would be asked to leave...."
This was not a professional way to handle the issue.
And the issue had already been dealt with amongst the group.
The leader has now stirred up a situation that had been resolved, and made everyone very uncomfortable.
Those attending the group should already be aware of the rules and regulations anyway.

Hmm wonder how the policy would fare under scrutiny of the DDA. Children with learning difficulties often hit/bite etc more than their normally developing peers.

Yes I agree the behaviour policy should ideally be known to those attending

they should have a welcome pack in which this is spelt out (to be fair, they may have done this - parents don't always read or recall all the information they have been given)

Caligula I can relate to what you are saying

However this IS normal policy and will not have just been invented by the leader of this group. A woman who is, in all likelihood, a volunteer, doing this job in her own time, for no pay, and having to follow the guidelines that she has been given, with no training to help her enforce these rules. She may also have her own child at the group and will have had very little time to think this over - she probably felt she needed to act quite quickly here. It is a very nasty situation for everyone, IMO.