To not want my human rights torn up?

[futuristic1]

I thought we weren't going to let them change the way we live?

Except it doesn't work like that. You can't remove human rights and still have the protection of human rights. It's a bit like saying let's abandon the principle of innocent into proven guilty but only for criminals.

This right here!

We seem to be being forced into them and us situations all the the time, when in reality it's Us (everyone) vs Them (those in power).

Yes Lana & so depressing.

But above all else we need a system which does not allow those in power to sell us down the river on half lies and vague promises.

WE NEED THEM TO HAVE GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY- NOT MORE POWERS

I know Baby.

When you asked "what can we do about it?" I did a great big, weary sigh!
Not at you btw, it's the age old question isn't it?

I don't know how we can get change, when no one seems to want change.
Plus to some people change looks completely different, and will involve completely different things.

It just seems so simple to me, but to others it will always be someone elses fault, and Not Their Problem.

(Not having a pop at Tories btw, it's aimed at everyone!)

I think the biggest paradox here is this:

Religious cults of ALL persuasions target vulnerable members of society. This is well researched and well known.

So the best counteraction to that is to look after our vulnerable members of society more and in the best ways we can find.

Obviously this is completely at odds with Conservative thinking and ideology particularly at the moment. This is why politically its a problem for them.

I do think we need to be conscious of it for this reason. That's not an anti-Conservative point, its something that the Conservatives need to think about and find real ways to address rather than trying to solve the problem with other measures which are about as useful as a chocolate toothbrush and are in in reality in no way about small government either when the £s of enforcing and changing all this start to stack up.

Its actually a false economy. Countries can not be run like business every bit as equally as the state can become idle, corrupt and wasteful.

(And that's the problem with Jeremy Corbyn as some sort of 'saviour figure'.)

sigh

Seriously. People get very het up about human rights. We operate every other bit of our legal system perfectly well through a series of negative rights. No reason we can protect human rights in the same way. Positive rights are unnecessarily restrictive. With rights come responsibilities too many people only seem to grasp oneend not the other. One issue I really have issues with is the right to privacy. Personally I don't care if mi5 want to read my emails or listen in on my phone calls but an extremist would. We need the flexibility to let the police and security forces have whatever powers they need to rid the country of the scum.

If it stops the hideous massacres we've had recently then revisiting and, where appropriate, revisions made then I for one am all for it.

Human Right underpin the treatment you get in hospital. Removal of them leaves us all vulnerable.

As I said before, Human Rights protect our lives. They protect us from dying in ways which are inhumane.

Terrorists grab the headlines because its a sensational story. That's not so much the case for the way in which the disabled are treated. Its hidden, silent and doesn't produce revenue by clicks for media companies.

If we have our human rights removed, it doesn't necessarily mean there will be less deaths. There could well be more. But as long as they aren't front page grabbing that's ok as far as the media narrative is concerned.

There are multiple examples of where human rights laws have confounded and significantly prolonged the efforts of British authorities to control hate preachers and jihadist groups.
Anjem Choudary and Abu Hamza being only two such examples. There are more if you bother to look into it.

There is little doubt about the links between these men and those who have committed past terrorist attacks.

How many people were inflenced by these hateful figures while our institutions were spending millions on human rights legal cases to control them?

Just as important as police funding is ensuring our legal frameworks actually protect us rather than provide safe harbour for those who want to kill us.

Personally I don't care if mi5 want to read my emails or listen in on my phone calls

In actuality mine would put them to sleep.

But it leads to very, very bad things.

'If we have our human rights removed'

Look, we don't know the details. I don't think anyone is advocating having all our human rights removed . I'm presuming as had been said, it will be ones relating to being unable to expel dual nationals because of their human rights or unable to stop radical rallies because of their human right to free speech.

Human Right underpin the treatment you get in hospital. Removal of them leaves us all vulnerable.

Was hospital treatment so radically different in 1999 then, the year before the Human Rights Act?

Maxandrubyrubyandmax Seriously. People get very het up about human rights

Yes they do and I for one will continue to get VERY HET UP about Human Rights whenever anyone tried to take them away from me and my family.

And anyone who is daft enough to think that it could not affect them is looking at the world through Rose Coloured glasses.

'Was hospital treatment so radically different in 1999 then, the year before the Human Rights Act?'

Yes you'd think it was anarchy before. Ok lets say TM is going to amend it. Which I'm pretty sure will be what it entails not, 'that's it! you do not have any human rights anymore'.

Exactly it's all about self interest & not a left/right issue. How do you think we can challenge it?

Keep speaking out and sharing. Challenge the media narratives. Use evidence - particularly from government reports - against the government. Ask difficult questions. Put yourself out there. Stand in local elections. Think about becoming politicised yourself and challenging politics from within (includes public service and within the private sector not necessarily just in politics itself). Educate and explain the importance of accountability as much as possible.

I do think that Leavers and Remainers in large part have huge common ground here.

One of the big drivers of how people are voting is out of a sense of frustration about 'elites' and how they treat ordinary people with contempt and line their own pockets etc etc. And how they are not held to account.

To stop the divides in our society right now this is what we MUST do. Focus on this common feature.

Sadly, this is what upsets me, as May presents herself as somehow being this person - against the wasteful EU etc etc. Against the 'elite' experts and institutions who oppose her dressing them up as 'enemies of the people'. It couldn't be further from the truth.

There are also huge problems with educated people in the way they talk about things and try and convey this to less well educated that are being exploited in this. If often comes across as being patronising or confrontational, so its something that anyone in that situation has to be mindful of.

The thing is here; we are ALL seeing the same thing, but the way we are interpreting it is different. Some people are being led in a particular way because of this media narrative. We have to offer and alternative credible explanation and allow people to ask questions of what they are being told themselves, rather than telling them they are just wrong in blunt terms.

This isn't 1999. The world is changing. Its not about what has happened in the past. Its about what's happening now, and protecting for the future against possibility and current challenges.

Also do talk to someone from NI about their experiences and knowledge of Human Rights. In England we tend to have a very different view point, to the experience of others within our own country.

Why is important.

There are multiple examples of where human rights laws have confounded and significantly prolonged the efforts of British authorities to control hate preachers and jihadist groups.
Anjem Choudary and Abu Hamza being only two such examples. There are more if you bother to look into it.

Actually if you'd bothered to look into it, you would discover that leftwing groups like Hope not Hate, and the Muslim community themselves warned authourities about Choudary, but nothing was done until it suited them.

WE already have the ability to stop this- what we do not have is enough police, or funding.

A law that harms all of us will not work.

It has already been proven that community policing was working, so what did TM do?
Cut it out of existence.

Start looking in the right places, and all the answers fall into place.

@Pentapus

Please read the full thread, your points have already been addressed a million times.

This will not work.

What would work is reversing the cuts to the police, even the ex head of NI anti terror has said this.

waitforit
So British society as a whole sees women as disposable and that's a problem in all cultures

Utter bollocks. Go to Pakistan go to Afghanistan go to Syria go to Egypt and see how you are treated there as a woman. You Just can't say it can you! thays exactly how Rotherham happened! Dancing around ugly facts

I've actually been to all those places in the past. Was treated with the utmost respect and hospitality.

So there is no problem with sexism in European/British cultures? No violence against women? The disposability of young girls had nothing to do with it?

Try talking to some of the Muslim women in those areas being locked out of politics by the men in just the same way white women are often kept out of 'male' arenas.

It wasn't just 'lefty social workers' ignoring those girls, it was politicians of all stripes, the police force (famous for their leftiness) and many other groups who failed. If the victims had been middle class boys instead of low status girls do you think the crimes would have been overlooked as well? Not to mention the Muslim girls being abused in the same community.

One of the big drivers of how people are voting is out of a sense of frustration about 'elites' and how they treat ordinary people with contempt and line their own pockets etc etc. And how they are not held to account.

Yes I think this is why we ended up with Brexit & Trump. Not simply because everyone is racist & misogynistic.

Also do talk to someone from NI about their experiences and knowledge of Human Rights. In England we tend to have a very different view point, to the experience of others within our own country.

This! I've actually been quite shocked at some of the posts I've read recently on here re the Troubles.

Actually if you'd bothered to look into it, you would discover that leftwing groups like Hope not Hate, and the Muslim community themselves warned authourities about Choudary, but nothing was done until it suited them.

Yes, I am aware of that, but it is not pertinent to my point.

Human Right underpin the treatment you get in hospital. Removal of them leaves us all vulnerable.

It makes me so sad that we need a Human Rights Law for what should be normal human compassion for unwell people in hospital . I know this is a very simplistic view though.

LanaKane

I rather doubt you are in any position to state categorically what will and won't work.

Further, I will post what I want, where I want, so please butt out with your thread policing comments.

Further, I will post what I want, where I want, so please butt out with your thread policing comments.

You can. Other people can post what they like in response. You are thread policing too.

Further, I will post what I want, where I want, so please butt out with your thread policing comments.

Aren't you glad you have free speech? It could be taken away from you, and then what would you do?