To not want my human rights torn up?

[futuristic1]

I thought we weren't going to let them change the way we live?

'Say the massively subsidised bars in the HoC, the extra, completely unnessecary second homes, the paying of things to them that the rest of us have to pay for ourselves??'

Yes I agree with you there. Mind I don't recall previous Labour governments being too bothered about giving up their perks either.

The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU.

Shhhh !!!!!! That's the first bear trap for the thickies. If anyone thinks we are getting out of the ECHR because we are leaving the EU, it's an excellent sign that they don't know what they are talking about.

Thanks Red, also the below is an excellent point.

In reality and on a practical level it is much better to put pressure on what society accepts in terms of what can be publically discussed and then prosecute under other laws domestically. This requires a proper honest conversation led by politicians of all colours and not the propaganda of the media from political factions who need it for their own power.

Who in earth has said that here?

No one. That's not the point. The point is media narrative that has suggested that Muslims don't report people in their communities, and the ongoing revelations that people have done such things, only to find that our various security services are not having this information passed to others and that there is a lack of funding to facilitate earlier intervention and police involvement. The law is a mute point here because it always needs someone to enforce.

Equally lefty liberals are criticised for standing up for rights, when rights are not the heart of the problem. Its media narratives which are obstructive and politicians who put their political careers and power ahead of the interests of society and refuse to accept responsibility for errors they have made. This stops them from going back to weak areas and reforming them, and instead pursue other political avenues which are not so politically embarrassing but perhaps are not so effective.

The culture of blame and not accepting responsibility and a lack of proper public accountability are at the core of the problem.

No but the previous Labour Governemnt wasn;t exactly what I would call a proper left wing one.
TM and co have had since 2010 to do something about it, and haven't.

What they have done is cream the money out of the public system, and put it even further into private companies.

Does it not enrage anyone else, that private firms are making money from our taxes, and providing a shoddier service as a result??

Why should taxpayers line the pockets of shareholders while we have people using foodbanks??

Why can the Tories get away with wasting billions on an ill fated IT project, with barely a whimper from the press??

Well said RedToothBrush.

Lana Re money all completely valid points & I agree but I just don't think that will ever happen. I don't believe the gravy train will stop.

Any money for it will have to come from tax payers.

The reason why we have failing services especially the police, anti-terror is because the Tories are making them fail.

If the threat level is so severe, why are they cutting funding and police numbers?

If community policing was being proven to work, why have they cut it?

Instead of actual solutions we are getting legislation that will harm us all, and do nothing to stop radicalisation, before it gets a foothold.

but I just don't see where that money is going to come from

• They find the money to bail out the banks.
• They find the money for the now-impotent Trident

There does indeed seem to be a magic money tree....just for their wants, not our needs.

People also need to bear in mind that a "terrorist" like a "criminal" is only what the state says they are.

Most people posting here would be astounded to discover that they could be classed a criminal or terrorist, if the police and CPS chose to....

billions on an ill fated IT project

Well it was started by Labour in 2002 and was as usual for government contracts badly defined with weak requirements.

How about focusing on growth? Shown to generate increased revenue.

Isn't business supposed to be the Tory strong suit?

Good growth. Green growth.

Why not do something positive instead of rush to remove human rights?

There does indeed seem to be a magic money tree....just for their wants, not our needs.

Indeed & I cynically think this will be ever so.

So surely the answer is to fight it, rather than accept cuts because "thats the way it is"??

People are dying, due to austerity, both directly and indirectly, both through terrorism and through neglect by services.

I will never stand by quietly while ordinary people are suffering due to the gravy train that is Parliament.

So as a taxpayer, I should just shrug and accept it when my rights are taken away, when all that really needed to happen was for this country to wake up and put an end to the milking of the system??!

Nah, fuck that!

'No but the previous Labour Government wasn't exactly what I would call a proper left wing one.TM and co have had since 2010 to do something about it, and haven't'

Haven't 2nd homes for MP's and expenses etc always been available, preceding the last 'not properly left wing Labour' government? It needs abolishing yes I just think it' irrelevant to say TM hasn't done anything about it.

And I didn't agree when Labour did similar things either, and I fought it just as hard.

Babywontsleep12 that case is frustrating precisely because of the way in which it has been spun in terms of freedom of movement when the reality is that freedom of movement was not the problem in that case, but other areas of law which needed greater cooperation rather than ending our relationship with the EU.

This is why I stress time and time again the role of the media and how politicians are pushing blame onto something incorrectly to save their own blushes.

In reality this is very much what a lot of the EU debate was about.

The EU was blamed for a great many things that OUR politicians had full control over but have been incompetent over. This is politicians of ALL colours.

This is where we need GREATER accountability rather than giving the state MORE power to suppress failings. Which is essentially what Brexit and more terrorism is giving politicians the opportunity to do.

We are NOT asking the right questions nor seeing the real picture of things as a society. Instead we were fed for years a diet of blaming the EU. Rather than looking at how we were spending far less per head on things like health and social care.

We need to challenge the narratives we are given by the press and think more critically. Instead we are fed soundbites robotically like 'Strong and Stable'.

As it stands, I don't necessarily have a problem with people who have voted Conservative in the past. I do have a problem with Theresa May because of her manner and the way she operates to shut down debate.

We need to see terrorism, brexit, human rights, Trump and Theresa May through this lens. They are all very closely intertwined.

Brexit itself need not be a wholly toxic thing. Its how its handled that is more crucial.

It WILL come out eventually. It is an inescapable reality. But the issue is who is going to be the next scapegoat in the process during the Brexit process and in the immediate aftermath.

And at what price and with how much damage. Will this be repairable. I fear it won't be.

I personally think this is not necessarily a left/right political position. Its one shared by people by people on both sides. It should worry the vast majority of people. The trouble there are people driving it out of total self interest and claiming this is the national interest. Its not.

Those of you advocating laws the allow potential terrorists be detained for longer and other laws that trample on people's rights - have a look back at how effective that was when dealing with the IRA. Situations like the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4 and the Maguire 7, all miscarriages of justice resulted, from the prevention of terrorism act. Internment without charge acted as a massive recruitment drive for the IRA.

Removing human rights does nothing except increase division in the community and acts as a recruitment mechanism for terrorist organisations. I don't have the solution but I would think increased community policing, whereby the police build trust with all communities would go a long way towards helping.

The EU was blamed for a great many things that OUR politicians had full control over but have been incompetent over. This is politicians of ALL colours.

This is where we need GREATER accountability rather than giving the state MORE power to suppress failings. Which is essentially what Brexit and more terrorism is giving politicians the opportunity to do.

^^THIS!!!

'Most people posting here would be astounded to discover that they could be classed a criminal or terrorist, '

Oh please, stop scaremongering. I assure you I could never be classed as a criminal or a terrorist. I accept you said 'most', who on earth do you mean?

But people are fighting it, the NHS strikes etc I've attended marches myself but what as changed?

I think it's important to stand up, have a voice, protest & im not advocating for changes to HR.

How do you see it changing then?

No one's talking about 'your human rights torn up' for heaven's sake, it's about ensuring that potential terrorists slipping through the net.

Except it doesn't work like that. You can't remove human rights and still have the protection of human rights. It's a bit like saying let's abandon the principle of innocent into proven guilty but only for criminals.

If it stops the hideous massacres we've had recently then revisiting and, where appropriate, revisions made then I for one am all for it.

Yeah how else are we going to stop terrorists who go on channel 4 proclaiming their extremism without scrapping human rights. It's the only way.

I personally think this is not necessarily a left/right political position. Its one shared by people by people on both sides. It should worry the vast majority of people. The trouble there are people driving it out of total self interest and claiming this is the national interest. Its not.

Exactly it's all about self interest & not a left/right issue. How do you think we can challenge it?

I don't know Baby

Part of the problem is, as RedToothBrush just said, is the media narrative.

Anyone advocating real change is shouted down and ridiculed.

We are fed soundbites and half a story.
People can't be bothered to read beyond a headline.
We seem to be being forced into them and us situations all the the time, when in reality it's Us (everyone) vs Them (those in power).

We need to start looking at a longer bigger picture, instead of a system where politicians only enact legislation that makes them look good for 5 years/wins votes rather than what's actually best for the country.

We need to start electing politicians who promise real change, rather than a little tweak here and there to keep the papers happy.

We need a Governmental system that works for the people, rather than the politicians and private shareholders.

But an actual proper answer, as how to we solve this soon??

I don't know how to do it, I just know that I won't give up either.