To be considering voting Tory to make them accountable for Brexit

[Bearbehind]

I'm an ardent Remainer albeit a life long Tory voter and, when the GE was called I was adamant I wouldn't vote to endorse TMs plans.

Given Corbyns complete failure to acknowledge Brexit I don't want to vote for him (even though he is coming out of this campaign far better than TM).

But even if I didn't think that, it seems to me Labour winning would be the worst situation because, when the realisation that we can't have our cake and eat it hits with regard to the Brexit negotiations, it will be blamed on Labour not being 'strong and stable'.

I'm now thinking a vote to make the Tories accountable might not be such a bad thing?

I get your point re the potential for blameshifting re Brexit if we get a new government.

However, if you think this lot will take responsibility for anything under any circumstances you are deluding yourself.

Brexit was another national vote called by an arrogance Tory, if I correctly recall.

Read the manifestos bearbehind because the answers to your questions are in there. (well, not the Tories as they haven't put any figures in at all, but the Labour one adds up).

I don't think they'll accept blame for a second- TM has made it very clear she is going to blame everything on 'the will of the people'

I guess it's not so much the Tories being accountable as them not having the ability to blame a Brexit disaster on Corbyn's negotiating.

It's not giving them the opportunity to claim they could have done better.

We aren't going to get as good a deal as we have now by a long way, regardless of who negotiates it.

christina, unless you've read a different Labour manifesto to me I'd repeat my question.

And I'll refer you back to the Labour manifesto.

The answers are there.

I agree that We aren't going to get as good a deal as we have now by a long way, regardless of who negotiates it.

However I would add that It is important that we negotiate a new deal now. As I think there is a serious chance this government will crash out of the EU rather than negotiate out.

I would also add There is the possibility for negotiation to make a positive difference to the deal we are likely get now. By this I mean there is a big range of where we might likely end up with a negotiated exit, and proper negotiation will determine how good that deal is.

An important angle for me is that so many of the relationships between EU leaders and our leaders are probably unsalvageable now. But EU leaders could reconsider their position AND save face if they could negotiate with new people- people with a markedly different attitude. People who haven't played silly buggers for the last 6-12 months.

So, whilst it wouldn't be a fresh start, it would be a chance for EU leaders to move away from positions that are starting to be entrenched. They would be able to pause, take a deep breath, have a bit of a moan re the last lot, bond over what a dreadful man Trump is etc, and actually roll up their sleeves and start anew. At least for a little while.

It would also buy a bit of time for work behind the scenes, as the Eu leaders could justifiably claim to their own electorates that the new government needs some time to get up to speed. And our professional negotiators could find out where some key shifts would get the conversation going again.

That is currently, sadly, our best chance. But we do need to start from where we are.

The Labour manifesto assumes blithely that the high earners and the companies will hang around to be taxed more and more every year.

Supporters of it just like to put their fingers in their ears and shout, laalala people won't move, lalalala - sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

I'm tempted to think that if Labour get it there won't be a Brexit - he'll not be capable of getting a decent deal & as he wouldn't leave without a deal we'll not leave. What a disaster.
And have you seen the latest leak on the Labour idea of allowing unlimited immigration - no restriction on having useful skills or being able to support yourself. Just increased demand on the NHS, on schools, housing, jobs......

So would you rather Boris Johnson deal with it or Keir Starmer?

Thats not like for like.

It would be Kirsty Starmer v David Davies of you are talking Brexit ministers or Emily Thornbury v Boris Johnson if you are talking Foreign secretary.

If you want to go further others dealing with it would be Amber Rudd v Diane Abbott at Home Office and John McDonnell v Philip Hammond as Chancellor.

Hello Tory party HQ dinner! Are you getting a bit rattled about this evening's debate?

Bear I get where you're coming from. I think that Brexit is going to be a disaster, whoever does the negotiating. The Tories got us into this mess so it seems right that they should be the ones who face the consequences when it goes tits up. However, I truly believe that the NHS as we know it would no longer exist after another 5 years of Tory government.
My hope is that TM wins with a majority of 3 or 4 so people think 'What the fuck was the point of all that time and expense spent on another GE?'. The Brexit negotiations are a disaster and the Tories lose their majority after a couple of by elections.
There is then another GE and a Labour/LD coalition government. There is a referendum on whether to have another referendum on Brexit and Yes wins. There is another referendum and 60% vote to stay in the EU. I can always dream.

But the Tory party wouldn't be the ones facing the consequence. They'll all be high and dry.

Many of their voters would though, just like the ordinary working people who voted for Trump and now find they're going to lose their health care.

If you want to hit her where it hurts over brexit, vote labour and reduce her landslide

To be fair I'm in an area where my vote will make sod all difference and it will be a Tory hold anyway so it all a bit hypothetical.

I just wish we had a decent choice.

Although I get your point, a vote for the Tories will end the NHS and kill more people. Disabled, unemployed, elderly or just poor people are dying. 2 people die every day of hunger of thirst while in hospital or care homes.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/two-patients-die-starvation-thirst-each-day-nhs-hospitals-uk-care-homes-statistics-office-national-a7517171.html

So YABVFU.

AIBU To be considering voting Tory to make them accountable for brexit

Otherwise known as cutting off you nose to spite your face. Understandable to think it, but to much at stake to do it

Yes sorry Davies' name eluded me.
But I'd still rather Keir Starmer worked on it, personally. May/Corbyn would have little involvement.

The Labour manifesto assumes blithely that the high earners and the companies will hang around to be taxed

Yeah, it's awful the way that Norway has been totally depopulated by people leaving to avoid hight taxation and tight regulation. Oh hang on....

Newsflash: the UK ain't Norway. Different population levels. Different industries. Different infrastructure. Different culture. etc etc etc. Increasing taxes isn't going to create a Scandinavian utopia here. It may, however, create a massive brain drain.

And that the corporations were still around in 2010, when corporation tax was higher than the level being proposed by Labour.

I'm a higher-than-average earner, although not by London Mumsnet standards (a small portion of my salary squeaks into the 40% bracket). And I'm dead educated and highly employable. Remarkably, I support a system where those with More shoulder a little extra burden to support those with Less.

Hello Tory party HQ dinner! Are you getting a bit rattled about this evening's debate?
'fraid not. They are plenty of Mumsnetters who support the Conservatives & I'm a previous poster with a name change, not a newbie. And the Labour immigration leak has been confirmed by Corbyn as being one of their options - granted it's not a definite, but it is a definite option they're considering.

Nor is it Monaco Sionella.

Excellent. The UK has benefited greatly from immigration over the years. One of the awful side effects of Brexit is the loss of skilled labour and brain drain of bright, young things.

If we need the immigrant labour so badly, what did we do before the recent influx. Did we go without coffee bars, did fruit go unpicked, warehouse shelves go unstacked, plumbing go unplumbed ...?

The british people are too lazy to do these jobs obviously because they can't be bothered to learn Polish, which is sometimes specified as a desirable skill.

So you considered your remain vote carefully, weighed up all the evidence, put much more thought in to in than 'thicko leavers'...

But this election your just going to vote to cut of your own nose to spite your face?

Fair enough can't really take the moral highground after this one though.