Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

Depends what definition of "trans" you're using. Is India really really just clueless to keep angering their own community or are they playing the long game and playing to a different audience, the mainstream audience. I tend to go with self absorbed cluelessness myself.

I don't think that the absence of any part of my anatomy, or presence of any different anatomy, would make any difference. If I woke up tomorrow with a male body, I'd be a very confused woman, with a man's body. If I feel that strongly about my gender identity, I can't see why anyone else would be less 'sure' about theirs.

I don' believe there is anything that is innately female. It's biology and social conditioning (ie, gender roles). So, ultimately, biology.

strange yeh, it is biology...biology is not just your genitals, it's also your genetics and your brain. It's definitely not as simple as a 'male' or 'female' brain, but it's also not simply your genitals. I don't think gender ID is entirely genetic, otherwise identical twins would have a 100% chance of both being trans. There is however a concurrence of trans IDing in twins that suggests it is more than just coincidental.

What is more likely, is that there is a 'gene' for being trans (and similarly a gene for being gay) that may or may not be triggered during life, and that trigger is likely related to external factors.

If I woke up tomorrow plus or minus a leg, or suddenly darkhaired, or a foot taller, I'd be a very confused woman, too.

I'm not sure that makes my identity innately ginger, bipedal and short, it's just my body that's each of those things.

If you're non binary, what toilet would you use? Or changing rooms? Or hospital wards?

Right...

I think it comes down to what one sees as gender.

I must admit, I haven't read a lot about it. But I have thought about what I myself, as a woman, think makes me a woman.

First of all we have of course sex. That's rather easy, I suppose.

Now, people like to say that gender is "in my head".
But that doesn't mean it isn't (if it even exists) connected to sex/biological reality.

1. Hormones: I don't see how anybody can deny their impact on psychology. Many trans people also describe the psychological impact of HRT. Plus, for me personally it's quite easy to observe how for example my cycle has a psychological impact...

1. Societal structures: People are treated as girls/women (or boys/men) because of their (perceived) biological reality. Not because they identify as male or female. The way you are treated from day one has obviously a great influence on one's personality. I imagine that treatement is to certain degrees pretty much always incompatible with certain aspect of a person's personality. Especially if the treatement makes one feel as lesser... Either for personality or for the sex/gender.

1. What my biological reality means when dealing with other people. Knowing that I am physically weaker than most adult males obviously shapes my own view of society.

So, imo gender is based on biological and hormonal reality and societal consquences based on those.
If somebody believes they were meant to be the opposite sex because of dysphoria or simply because of societal expectations? That's fine imo. However, if it is because of societal expectations (liking to wear suits and do sports outside, for example) I personally rather wish they'd just do these things as women and expand the "societal box". Instead of assuming that not being a personification of a gendered stereotype means that they are NB....

At least that's my take on it.

People trying to narrow down the box of "woman" even more, especially in the name of "intersectional feminism" are imo extremely misguided and it's imo no wonder why many MRAs or conservatives are actually for this political transgender movement/why a surprising amount of trans women are socially conservative.

I don't think that the absence of any part of my anatomy, or presence of any different anatomy, would make any difference. If I woke up tomorrow with a male body, I'd be a very confused woman, with a man's body. If I feel that strongly about my gender identity, I can't see why anyone else would be less 'sure' about theirs.

Well, I think it does. And If I woke up tomorrow with a male body? Ok, I'm currently pregnant, so that would be a big issue. But after that? I'm sure that I'd be fine with that.

Ehm, I didn't realise how long this comment would be. I hope it makes sense, it was difficult to express myself in English and I didn't consciously structure it... Ehm. Yes.

cricket you're fine! I doubt I'd be so able to express myself in a second language

Loops - are you positing that genetics may be a factor in someone thinking that they are trans, or a factor in someone being trans? Is there a difference?

Orlantina my university has gender neutral toilets, which work very well for everyone

Faceicle I think I mean that genetics play a part in being trans, and trans here is the feeling that your perception of your own gender does not correlate with your biological sex. I don't think it's 100% genetic though, but I do think it has a basis in genetics. The nature/nurture debate is not always especially clear cut, and your genes can be triggered in various ways as you age according to external factors. That does give the best (to my mind) explanation for why there is a genetic component to trans but not an absolute correlation.

@Loopsdefruits

Can you please define 'female'?

Loops

Is that all toilets as in communal stall types or individual rooms like disabled loos? Are there any communal msle or female loos?

female - biologically having reproductive parts that can produce eggs and (in humans) carry offspring.

female - gender identity that relates to the idea of what you view as 'woman' which isn't always related to biology. It can be influenced by what socialisation has taught you about gender differences, but not always (again, gender 'neutral' children still develop a gender identity and it doesn't always relate to their genitals/reproductive parts).

Defining things becomes a little pointless when the language we are using doesn't accurately explain a large proportion of real people's lived reality.

'There is however a concurrence of trans IDing in twins that suggests it is more than just coincidental.'

Have you got a link to this study?

"What is more likely, is that there is a 'gene' for being trans (and similarly a gene for being gay) that may or may not be triggered during life, and that trigger is likely related to external factors."

Wish this could be proven or unproven once and for all. It could be possible, it would explain why someone thinks they should be the oppisite sex or has gender or bidy dysphoria - still doesn't nake them actually be the opposite sex - just explains it surely, unless you believe gender is a tangible biological entity and sex is indeed as much as in your brain as it us your reproduction system.

loop
I often used to stay late in university (to study). I wouldn't have been comfortable in a gender neutral loo.

I imagine many people that are aware of the fact that they are physically weaker than most adult males may feel the same.

Which is why I honestly doubt that it works for everyone.
Or are just a few loos genderneutral and others aren't or...?

bambam we have pretty much only single rooms like disabled toilets, although the ones in the student union building have lots of individual lockable rooms next to each other, and then communal sinks at the entrance. So like stalls? But with more privacy. We have some communal bathrooms with male/female on the door, but not as many, and most are lockable rooms rather than stalls. Trans students/staff use the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, and NB students have plenty of gender neutral toilets available if they prefer

*going to a genderneutral loo.

That sounds as if I was in the stall studying

We need woman only spaces.

I have run many support groups that are for women only.

sylvia not off-hand, we looked at in in class, the studies aren't great though, small sample size anyway (identical twins) as well as it not always being easy to follow up as children grow up. There are more studies on homosexuality in identical twins, which show a similar result, but yeh... hopefully research will improve, but it's a start.

Bambam Yeh, it would definitely make it easier. But then there's a lot of stuff that we don't 'know' the cause of? Like I have a genetic condition that they don't know the actual gene problem for. Genetic research has a long way to go.

Cricket the 'main' bathrooms in the SU are staffed 24/7 by union security staff (not in the bathroom but in the area) and the way they are designed doesn't allow for much 'secrecy' outside of the actual toilet. The library has 2 individual lockable toilets with sinks on each floor (that can also be used by disabled students). It's no less safe than using a women's bathroom next to a men's bathroom, and men who want to do something horrible can actually go in to a women's bathroom, it's not like there's anything stopping them.

Language is important. So, in the spirit of discovery and to return to the subject of the thread - how do I know if I am non binary?

I don't know? I'm not, so I can't actually give you a definition of what it means/how someone who is NB feels. Have you tried looking for examples written by NB people describing their feelings/experiences?

Have you Loops? And if so, did anything strike you as moving or constructive?

This video has a few different people explaining their own experiences with their identity, and has some terms that have been mentioned in the thread. It's a bit long (for a vlog) but it might be better to listen to someone who actually feels this way, rather than a cis woman.

It does seem that for a lot of people the first feeling is that something is not 'right' and then they have to figure out what it is that is 'wrong'. That can lead to various labels and identities before they find one that feels 'right'. Yep, it's all very 'feelings' but feelings are real.