Non Binary / Gender Neutral

[MissBax]

Okay so I know this may spark some serious debate. I just want to say that I really don't want to offend ANYONE, however AIBU to say that the whole non Binary trend (for want of a better word) is getting abit out of hand??
If someone was born a man and chooses to transition to a woman or vice versa I understand that, but to say you don't identify as having a gender... I just don't understand it?! I am female but have never been girly - I didn't have dolls, I despise pink, and I always played football with the guys, climbed trees and was very sporty. But I'm still a girl. I know boys who didn't necessarily like "boyish" things but they're still boys. Any girl or boy can like anything they like.
Now we have "non binary" people who SAY they don't identify as one gender or the other, yet some of them are born female, wear make up and dresses. So following typically "girly" or "feminine" characteristics. Or those who have a sex change and THEN say they're non binary?! So then why have the sex change?!
AIBU to think this is just another way to ruffle people's feathers and possibly attention seeking?
(I wait in anticipation for being called ignorant and a biggot etc...)

It's very interesting that you can correlate the age at which people transition. And detransition. Especially women. Statistically they transition between the ages of 15 and 25 (how many late, middle-aged transitioning women have you ever heard of?). For detransitioners the average time presenting as the opposite sex is about four years.

Detransitioning also gives the lie to it being innate.

And yes, apart from late transitioning men with AGP, it's a youth movement.

I see it as a form of rebellion and questioning that every generation has.

What will be interesting, is how the next generation reject their parents' obsession with gender identity.

They will have to find something else to kick against. But I wonder what form that will take in terms of denouncing gender identity politics.

Each generation thinks they have found The Thing. The Way.

The next generation has to reject it to make room for their own thing.

And this is all completely separate to gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is real.

A medical condition that has been politicised.

Well exactly faceicle. You can't identify your way out of oppression and discrimination and it's actually really fucking insulting to suggest that you can.

Yes Jigly - alongside the unavoidable conclusion that those not proclaiming a witless statement of self identification are accepting of or colluding in their experience of discrimination. It is fucking offensive.

Totally agree about making more boxes.

I have known 4 transgender men in my life. Each one of them chose to dress in a very exaggerated "female" way. I had a colleague when I worked in an engineering department. The ( very few) women who worked there would come to work in non gendered clothes, work was often grubby and physical. For my transgender work mate, he would " make the effort" and he would turn up wearing 4 " heels, false eyelashes and nails, dressed for a nightclub.
The other transgender males I knew all had a similar attitude to wearing " female" clothes.
The transgender man we see in the media Caitlyn Jenner and many others all without exception as far as I can see dress like hostesses from a night club.
Is that really claiming womanhood? Is that something we should respect, the fact that they are trying to shoehorn themselves into a grotesque caricature of a woman?

How helpful is that to us cis women who don't make the effort.
I also have my own views on what motivates men to squeeze into tiny mini skirts.

My cousin is a trans. His dysphoria was really awful. He is much better now... And he is also a really kind, loyal and intelligent person. I'm glad to see he is happier.

I have nothing against trans people. People like that seemed to have existed in different times (when society allowed it). But I am against how it was politicised. Or maybe more about the political ideology around it... Which certainly involves the NB debate. So is my cousin, btw.

I was also struck by the stories about Chelsea Manning being released from prison this week. There was a photo (posted on Twitter, maybe?) captioned "Here I am!" and I can't imagine a man, recently released from prison, using such a breezy, coquettish tone in those circumstances. I can't imagine a woman doing it either. It only makes sense in the context of someone trying to appear as hyper feminine (dumb, even) as possible

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39969445

Also with a plunging neckline.

Very stereotypical femininity or something, I suppose

"You can't identify your way out of oppression and discrimination and it's actually really fucking insulting to suggest that you can."

True, but perhaps this is a way of shaking up the old stereotypes and unconscious sexism. Young oeople starting to think and talk about it and goung about it in a seemingly ridiculous, attention seeking and hugely irritating way. Maybe we have to go through this to shake things up - or maybe not.

Here's a crazy thought, how about you try to stop framing everything according to your world view, and listen to people who identify as non-binary? You might learn something.

I may have missed it - there's 17 pages - but did PinguForPresident ever explain what we might learn that we haven't already?

I see lots of transwomen online who don't look like drag queens or OTT hosttess types. Plus i understand their could be a point to the fact they have to "make mire effort" to pass or it's demanded to a degree by doctors or society for them to be taken seriously as "genuine trans"

OTOH - if Chelsea had come out with a beard and a suit, she'd have been criticised for looking like a man - and compared to Danielle Muscato.

What should she have worn and how should she have presented to

a) Not be accused of being too feminine?
b) Not be accused of looking too much like a man?

You can sometimes identify your way out of oppression, if you pass. Its just a bit shit for everyone else you leave behind.

I think Chelsea looks pretty good there actually, neckline a bit low and probably had professionals styling them of course.

What should she have worn and how should she have presented to

a) Not be accused of being too feminine?
b) Not be accused of looking too much like a man?

My issue wasn't with Chelsea's appearance but with the "Okay, so here I am everyone!!" which sounds more like a 13 year old girl than a grown adult who has just been released from prison. It's a strange choice of words, no doubt intended to appear really "girly", but no woman in those circumstances would really talk like that.

Maybe Bambambini but right now it just feels like a load more boxes and navel gazing. I don't think anyone who is so wrapped up in themselves is really going to overthrow the patriarchy anytime soon.

Painting - that's not non-binary or gender-neutral, that's transing.

Issue? Not really a big issue.

I just thought it was extremely interesting. I personally don't think many 'cis women' in her situation would use that picture (or "here I am everyone")

Manning is big news, will be papped, interviews lined up etc. Maybe they just wanted to put that there to prepare the public and take control. Plus, after being locked up for years - maybe they just wanted to have some fun. They've been suicidal (allegedly) so they might be pretty vulnerable. Time will tell.

Anyone, whatever their sex and however they identify, will be in a bit of a psychological mess after coming out of prison. What I find so jarring, though, is the focus on "here I am, look at how well I pass as a woman, thanks everyone for sharing this photo of me" rather than even a nod to any of the actual issues for which Manning went to prison in the first place, which you'd think would be the thing uppermost in their mind, considering the state of the world and of US security issues today. It's as if Manning's entire personality and motivations are caught up in their gender presentation and nothing deeper.

The women who worked there would come to work in non gendered clothes, work was often grubby and physical. For my transgender work mate, he would make the effort and he would turn up wearing 4" heels, false eyelashes and nails, dressed for a nightclub.

Mmm. Someone I knew for years through sporting events came out as trans and immediately started turning up to the event in short skirts, full makeup, fussy blouses and heels. Everyone else there, male or female, was in sports kits or jeans. There might have been the occasional pink sweatshirt -- that would have been a choice that was appropriate to the event and a nod to femininity. This was like having the Duchess of Cornwall turning up instead.

Not sure if part of it was just learning a new style and finding what suits that's what everyone kindly assumed at the time, I think or whether being conspicuous was part of the appeal. I'm second-guessing all our previous conversations now.

Pre-transition, in fact, I found him an interesting, funny, warm sort of chap, a bit blinkered about how much he did with his children compared with the donkeywork put in by his wife, but good company. Post-transition, bloody hell her conversations were boring, and always seemed to centre on clothes or how wonderful it was to be doing the mothering - the sort of thing I went to the event to avoid talking about!

OTOH, a different friend's child trans FtM seems genuinely happier, relaxed now and getting on with a normal, varied, interesting student life free from all the sodding expectations of femininity-- happy to talk about everything under the sun except his own feelings and appearance. I wish them well (with some qualms about the bodily upheaval needed, and a side order of 'if he detransitions later, I really hope everyone will be just as accepting').

Dammit, I think I might just have argued myself into a corner here of 'stereotypical femininity bad, stereotypical masculinity good.' That really wasn't the aim.

Lordy, just seen that India Willoughby has just spouted more anti trans rhetoric again.

But India will apologise again and be accepted back into the fold unlike Adiche, Murray and Greer who stick by their guns under fire.

India's rhetoric is not anti-trans, it's pro trans. Its anti gender non binary.

Because India needs genders to be firmly reinforced in order for India to be able to enjoy the female stereotypical roles.

If people are suddenly denigrated for fitting in to a masculine/feminine box, trans-people would find themselves on the receiving end of that.

Trans reinforces the binary.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/india-willoughby-piers-morgan-right-10448244.amp

Datun - I'm a long time follower and admirer of your excellent contributions but a very occasional poster. Thanks for linking to this. I had logically analysed the non binary theory as a logical offshoot of essence theory but hey, there you go, here comes India as predictable as anything to go "me me me" about what is evidently the same subject ...