To think this isn't legal

[starsinspring]

Hello. I am asking on behalf of a friend, with her permission.

The company they work for have sent a text out stating that poor quality of work has been reported and if this continues they won't be paid as the clients won't be billed.

I'm pretty sure legally they can't do this: am I correct?

Has anyone answered this thread yet with "yes OP, you're definitely correct"?

...I wonder if there's something in that.

OP, I doubt your friend's employer would have written that in a message if they didn't feel there was a basis for deductions in the contract; a specific reason they would use to make the deduction, not just the "client not happy" line. I'm sure they were making reference to the more specific words in the contract rather than using them, no?

Well she is on minimum wage anyway so below that would obviously be below minimum wage. It's cleaning, basically. If a client complains they aren't happy with the cleaning the agency are saying they will not pay the cleaner. But that's obviously open to abuse.

Hmm. I can see that a cleaning contract could legally and reasonably include deductions for loss/damage (though frankly that's what insurance is for) but "client whinged" is less fair unless there's obvious cockups such as obvious muddy footprints on a "mopped" floor or something.

It definitely sounds like it falls into "client won't pay" territory which pp upthread said is not a permitted reason for deducting pay.

I would argue that is the agency's problem to negotiate with their client. However I suspect she might hold a contract for service rather than a contract of employment which means the usual employment laws may not apply. I do think for definitive advice she'll need to talk through her contract with ACAS to be absolutely sure. And sometimes that can be enough to get the agency/employer to back down.

It's difficult because the way a person defines "clean" obviously varies. If there is a clause stating that wages can be deducted if the work is low quality, then surely they need to specify exactly what the minimum that needs to be done is?

I used to work in an office where my boss deducted some money from one of my colleagues. The colleague took it to court and got the money back. Your friend needs to look at her contract and seek advice on it as it doesn't sound right to me that she should lose the money.

If it's something the agency is continually doing with specific individuals then yes, they're taking the piss. If they were that bad, they'd let them go. If, however, it's been one or two times and it's stipulated in her contract or there was a verbal agreement to that effect then the agency is within its rights.

OP: IABU to ask for . Oh and I need good quality and specific advice on this.
MN: Not sure OP, because there's not enough detail - but it's likely to be XYZ.
OP: I can't believe you're all saying it's XYZ. I wanted specific advice - you're all so unhelpful.

Erm, try seeing a lawyer love, instead of asking randoms on the internet. HTH.

"What I'm saying flowery is contracts aren't necessarily legal."

Indeed. But there's no way of telling whether this one is without knowing what it says.

Thank you flowery

She hasn't lost money but the agency keep texting threats to the cleaners, it's pretty unpleasant.

Hopefully it is some sort of misguided empty threat. If the business can't afford to pay staff due to losing a couple of clients, then the business is on its arse anyway.

Probably is. Unpleasant, really.

OK so wait, you say she hasn't lost money so in fact she hasn't been underpaid at all? When you say threats, how threatening do you mean? Asking for a simple improvement in standards is fine but if we're talking something aggressive then they are of course crossing a line.

As I've said really - "some clients are complaining, any more complaints and you won't get paid and the client won't be billed"

I water it down a little when I'm running short and am being too bloody lazy to drive to the shop and buy more.

-deliberately misses point of thread

Argh! Hit the wrong buttons and gone back to this thread to reply.

Not sure how I've done that. Oops. Sorry.

www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

Legally, minimum wage MUST be paid. Anything less is unlawful.

No, that is not true. As the link from ivykaty44 shows, certain deductions are allowed to take you below NMW. One of these is a deduction for something the employee has done which they are liable for under their contract. For example, a shop assistant may be on NMW but their employer is still entitled to deduct any shortfall in their till from their wages provided their contract says that the employee is liable.

This all revolves around any relevant clauses in the contract. Without knowing what that says there is no way of knowing whether or not the action threatened by the employer is legal.