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AIBU?

To think this isn't legal

93 replies

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 17:31

Hello. I am asking on behalf of a friend, with her permission.

The company they work for have sent a text out stating that poor quality of work has been reported and if this continues they won't be paid as the clients won't be billed.

I'm pretty sure legally they can't do this: am I correct?

OP posts:

Report

prh47bridge · 15/05/2017 18:30

employers can't just put whatever they want in a contract and then it becomes legal

What is in the contract is what will determine whether or not a deduction is legal. An employer can make deductions from wages provided they are authorised by the worker's contract. Deductions can take the worker below the minimum wage provided it is for something the worker has done (or failed to do) and the contract says they are liable for it. So if, for example, the contract says that a deduction will be made from their wages for failing to achieve the required quality that is perfectly legal.

The employer may also be making the perfectly reasonable point that they will go out of business if quality does not improve, in which case the workers won't get paid regardless of their legal rights.

PersianCatLady · 15/05/2017 18:39

First of all you need to find out whether or not your friend is employed or self-employed.

I know that you immediately think that she is employed but some companies today actually use the services of their workers on a SE basis.

I know of at least four people who you would consider to be employees but they are classed as being SE.

rjay123 · 15/05/2017 18:42

For the nth time - the contract is entirely relevant here.

Does your friend receive payslips and have NI/tax deductions? They cannot reduce her below NMW unless it is her final payslip, assuming she is a worker.

If she is working as self employed then yes they could not pay her based upon the terms of the contract.

So, what does the contract say about her employment status?

PersianCatLady · 15/05/2017 18:43

Forgot to add -

Also, even if your friend is an employee, she needs to check her contract of employment.

There may well ben a clause in the contract where she has consented to having deductions made for poor quality work.

A PP mentioned staff having pay deducted for missing stock and this can happen, as long as it doesn't amount to more than 10% of the pay amount.

prh47bridge · 15/05/2017 18:47

They cannot reduce her below NMW unless it is her final payslip, assuming she is a worker

Yes they can. A contractual reduction for something the worker has done or failed to do is one of the deductions that is permitted to take you below NMW. See www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay which gives the example of a shop worker being made liable for shortfalls in their till.

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 18:52

Of course she's employed, hence her employer and I've said that a few times now. And the offence is non specific - it's 'if we get any customer complaints' not 'if X not not done.'

OP posts:

happypoobum · 15/05/2017 18:57

It could be legal if it is specified as a possible deduction from pay in her contract.

I can see you are very resistant to the idea that she has to check her contract OP but that is what's needed here. Nobody can advise her without it.

MrsHathaway · 15/05/2017 19:03

Failure to collect payment from a client isn't the same as being unable to charge goods/services to a client.

For example, if work was of such low quality that the goods had to be written off and couldn't be sold at all.

I still think the contract is relevant as friend could be paid piece work or commission or other very pertinent conditions, as well as the spoilage deductions referenced by other posters.

But I maintain that it sounds underhand dodgy as fuck and friend should be exploring all her options. Employment disputes are rarely settled quickly even if you are totally in the right.

CheesyWeez · 15/05/2017 19:05

Penndragon that's awful. If someone shoplifts the makeup it comes out of their wages? If professional shoplifters come in the assistants could owe Debenhams money for coming in to work? Crikey! Do the security guards have to chip in?
My friend told me she made up a shortfall on the till by having a whip round at work and I was astounded.
Sorry I'm not being very helpful.
It might be legal, but it's just not right is it?

CheesyWeez · 15/05/2017 19:09

sorry slow typing, PersianCatLady I'm (sort of) relieved it's limited to 10% but even so, I don't think it's fair really! The stuff might have been nicked before your shift started, for example, or while you're doing a customer's makeup.

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 19:17

OP are you legally qualified?

Because you have a fuckton of legally qualified people here with experience in the law telling you to tell your friend to check the damn contract ...

AnneElliott · 15/05/2017 19:18

I would have thought they would need to pay minimum wage? Even if the rest of the wages is technically a bonus/ performance payment?

PersianCatLady · 15/05/2017 19:26

Of course she's employed, hence her employer and I've said that a few times now
You seem very defensive so as I HAVE ALREADY SAID she may appear to be employed but work on a self-employed basis.

What is it with you that you don't want to listen to anybody or check the contract.

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 19:28

I'm sorry, Persian, I'm multi tasking and I do feel I am repeating myself a lot.

OP posts:

Redcliff · 15/05/2017 19:41

I never knew that employers could make deductions that meant they could pay below NMW - I guess you do learn something every day. My friend was a waitress a few years ago and if someone did a runner she had to pay the bill

NellieFiveBellies · 15/05/2017 19:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Zoflorabore · 15/05/2017 19:44

Sounds like a scare tactic op

NellieFiveBellies · 15/05/2017 19:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fozzleyplum · 15/05/2017 20:06

The short answer is that it is not lawful; failure to pay would be a breach of contract and unlawful deduction from wages.

The employer can respond to genuinely poor work with disciplinary/performance improvement measures. If the employee has less than 2 years' (less 2 weeks) continuous employment, the employer may dismiss an underperforming employee, provided notice is served or paid in lieu.

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:10

:) thanks for replies.

She is not self employed.
It is a zero hour contract

OP posts:

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:10

It's not unlawful if the wmaplulyees have agreed to it in writing either as part of their contract of employment or in a separate contract.

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:11

It doesn't matter how many hours the contract is for. That's immaterial. What is important is if there is anything in the contract stating any deductions to wages.

You. Need. To. See. The. Contract.

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NellieFiveBellies · 15/05/2017 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:18

Maybe you had better move on Ffsh.

OP posts:

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:22

Why? Don't you like the question you asked being answered?

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