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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this isn't legal

93 replies

starsinspring · 15/05/2017 17:31

Hello. I am asking on behalf of a friend, with her permission.

The company they work for have sent a text out stating that poor quality of work has been reported and if this continues they won't be paid as the clients won't be billed.

I'm pretty sure legally they can't do this: am I correct?

OP posts:
Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:29

Not when the answers are repeated several times over and aren't very helpful or relevant. It's not that I don't like them just that it's pointless. Whatever her contract might say 'it has come to our attention that some employees are delivering a poor standard to clients, if this continues employees won't be paid' just can't be right. So I would contest that even if the contract DOES say it can withhold pay.

OP posts:
Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:31

Well why are you asking then?

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:34

To get answers that are relevant and helpful. Thank you :)

OP posts:
Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:40

My answers are relevant.

You cannot definitively say if it is or isn't legal until you see what your friend signed in their contract of employment or any other addendums to that.

Confused Why won't you just get the contract and read it?

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:41

And I was trying to be helpful and I thought my answers were helpful.

Ah well, never mind, you want to do this a different way - all the best of luck to you with that and I hope it doesn't bite your friend in the arse.

Have a nice day now.

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:42

You might try reposting in legal rather than AIBU. You might find the answers there the same as here more to your liking.

prh47bridge · 15/05/2017 20:44

I would contest that even if the contract DOES say it can withhold pay.

You can try to contest it but, if the contract says they can withhold pay in this situation, you would lose.

You appear to want to reject this on the basis that it is not relevant or helpful. I'm sorry but it is both. If you don't believe me and Ffsh, try ACAS at www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4125. Note the second bullet. If a deduction is authorised by the worker's contract it IS legal.

You may not like it but this IS the law.

CheesyChristie · 15/05/2017 20:45

Op everyone is saying you need to see the contract. You really need to see the contract to determine whether the employers are allowed to deduct wages or not.

Sorry that's clearly not the answer you're after.

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:45

But what situation? That's the point. It's so woolly and vague.

If you do something bad you will lose pay? That's basically what it's saying. Which isn't right. And I doubt my friend has her contract.

OP posts:
ChambourcyHippopotamousse · 15/05/2017 20:47

Have you asked your friend if she has her contract?

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:48

Yes ... I wish I could ban the word 'contract'!

OP posts:
ChambourcyHippopotamousse · 15/05/2017 20:48

What did she say about her contract?

Ffsherewegoagain · 15/05/2017 20:49

She can ask for a copy of her contract and any addendums from her HR dept.

She should - she should always keep a copy.

Bet she didn't even hardly read it when she signed it either.

I am out.

You need to get a copy of the contract and tell your "friend" to read carefully what she is signing.

You are ramping her up to contesting something that you don't know for sure she will win. It is legal to deduct from wages if that deduction has been agreed. Your friend you doesn't know what is in her contract so she you has no idea whether or not what is being proposed by the employer is legal.

Lesson to all - read the damn contract you sign and keep a fricking copy.

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:53

No, it's not me, I'd have just namechanged if it was me :) I don't think I'm explaining myself very well so let's leave it there,

OP posts:
Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 20:54

i am out

thank Christ

OP posts:
flowery · 15/05/2017 21:00

What an odd attitude from someone asking for help.

As you have rather interestingly sought legal advice in AIBU I will advise you that YABU to expect anyone to give an opinion about whether something is legal or not without hearing what is in the contract governing the relationship between the parties, and you are also BU to maintain this strange attitude that the contract is irrelevant.

AmysTiara · 15/05/2017 21:01

Bloody hell. For someone who was seeking advice you're pretty rude to people op. Confused

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 21:01

What I'm saying flowery is contracts aren't necessarily legal. If I have signed a contract saying I have to flash my arse every hour it doesn't mean I have to do it!

OP posts:
LadyIrisBarclay · 15/05/2017 21:06

What people are trying to explain to you op is that in some circumstances these deductions can be entirely legal.

Whether it's legal or not will depend entirely on what has been written in the contract. So without that information, no-one here can really advise.

If your friend took this to ACAS or an employment lawyer. The first question they would ask is "what does the contract say?"

LadyIrisBarclay · 15/05/2017 21:11

From www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/pay-deductions

Rules for making deductions from your pay

Your employer is not allowed to make a deduction from your pay or wages unless:

it is required or allowed by law, for example National Insurance, income tax or student loan repayments

you agree in writing to a deduction

your contract of employment says they can

it is a result of any statutory disciplinary proceedings

there is a statutory payment due to a public authority

you have not worked due to taking part in a strike or industrial action

it is to recover an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses

it is a result of a court order

MrsHathaway · 15/05/2017 21:11

Fwiw I used to have a totally legal employment contract under which my pay was under NMW. The difference was made up in benefits in kind (accommodation chiefly) but there was a limit to how far below you could be taken, regardless of the value of the benefits - though I guess you could have ended up with a negative tax code.

Original poster
starsinspring · 15/05/2017 21:12

Yes, but while I can understand deductions in some circumstances it would surely need to be something specific? Not "the client was unhappy." As that's too vague. Anyway no worries :)

OP posts:
MrsHathaway · 15/05/2017 21:14

contracts aren't necessarily legal

This is absolutely true. But the answer to how she should proceed is slightly different based on whether (1) they are not acting in accordance with the contract or (2) they are acting in accordance with the contract and (a) it's legally enforceable or (b) it is not legally enforceable.

And one would need to know the terms of the contract to know which of those situations she's in. (1) is probably simplest!

mustiwearabra · 15/05/2017 21:15

I think you have a few on here with legal qualifications OP. No, a term being written into a contract does not make it "legal" as it could indeed be an unreasonable term which, although your friend might have noticed and agreed to at the time, is actually unreasonable. The term could be so completely ludicrous that it could be viewed as never having been a fair and reasonable term in the first place and thereby, not part of the contract (regardless of whether included or not). If this withholding of pay is something your friend was aware happened in the company or if it has happened to her before, well then we have previous course of dealings to look at. Were there any verbal agreements or discussions on this topic whereby potential withholding of earnings was discussed but your friend agreed to do the work anyway? Industry is relevant, contract terms are relevant, previous dealings are relevant.

ItsThisOneThing · 15/05/2017 21:16

Legally, minimum wage MUST be paid. Anything less is unlawful.

Yes, the contract may have stipulations such as results-based pay which could offer a higher salary depending on results, but it would be illegal not to pay someone minimum wage (now living wage @ £7.50ph) for the work carried out.

However I'd be surprised if there is anything in her contract that would legally allow them to withhold any part of her pay, but that is worth checking. What they can't do is withhold pay altogether for work already delivered.

Suspect it's just a scare tactic on behalf of the employer in an attempt to improve quality.

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