To think medical evidence is the key to PIP / ESA

[LovelyBath77]

Just this really. It seems to be having gone through it all, that if you have good medical letters etc from consultants and things like a care plan and prescription copies, it makes it all so much easier and there is less for them to argue with.

With the reviews they ask that only new information is submitted which as a pp said in chronic cases that are stable there will be no new evidence to submit unless you've had an acute flare up

I lost my first PiP assessment. I provided medical evidence and as stated before even had pictures of my ulcerated colon. Apparently as I was well dressed and answered questions there's nothing wrong with me.
The second time, again all evidence provided. I got an award but not the award I should have done. Couldn't face appealing. Heaven knows what will happen next time.

I have found it true in my case and two other members of my family who I've supported in applying for PIP - I get enhanced rate for both care and mobility. I've been on PIP (or DLA before that) for 9 years now and I'm pretty obsessive with keeping medical records (and in fact I run a DPA request at all the clinics/hospitals I'm involved in periodically). I also type up a very detailed account of my own in answer to all the questions, but I don't feel that is taken as seriously as things that are written by a medical professional. I also make sure I take up the opportunity for any interventions offered even if I'm not convinced they'll help - as a pp mentioned sometimes you get threatened with being signed off if you have a chronic condition but I'm acutely aware if that happens then I won't have any new paperwork to submit when the next renewal comes.

I had pages and pages around 20 i think of evidence.
It didn't stop my pip assessor lying repeatedly through her assessment, adding complete bullshit in and missing vital things out. Ofcourse when i appealed i lost.
I won at the tribunal though they were very clear who was lying

People respond v differently to the same health condition and I can't see how it can be correct to write people off when they could have so much to offer and contribute.

Well, yes of course, but when I'm not attending appointment after appointment, I'm smack bang in the middle of winter praying that I wont get yet another virus that will land me in hospital. No one in their right mind will employ me at the moment as I'm seen as a liability straight off (carted off in an ambulance four times within six months last year). From my days at college and uni I have a lot to contribute but I need someone to be able to give me the chance. Ironically few are willing to take on someone who can end up hospitalised for a week at a time at the drop of a hat.

I am done for based on this - visually impaired, been discharged onto optician care since 2005. Have sent all the evidence I've got and have my assessment in 2 weeks. Only get low rate mobility on DLA but it's a big help - as an adult there are more issues with daily living, my mobility has improved but things like preparing food are a struggle.

Absolutely dreading it.

Agree too much depends on the assessor.

We got totally f*ed in last assessment by lies in the report and no amount of medical evidence (and degenerative condition) sent for the MR would stop the DWP saying they preferred to rely on her assessment.

Too ill for tribunal now.

But evidence does help if you get a fair assessor willing to read it.

lastcheesestraw
Go to the tribunal. I almost didn't due to the anxiety it was causing me.
I'm glad i did as they stated they could see that not once did my response change

No. All they are interested in is whether you hit the descriptors. My son had no F2F. A charity helped us fill in the forms, and they wouldn't let me submit an indepth 20 page report an ed psych had done on him, recently, which was really good and full of solid info. Why not? Because on one page, in one sentence, it said something positive. The charity who'd been doing this for people since PIP came in said even that one positive sentence (in the middle of 20 pages delineating his precise difficulties) would be enough for them to deny.

So we ended up submitting NO evidence. We got a letter saying no need to do anything else - they had contacted his GP and had 'ample information'.

I later saw what the GP wrote. Five words. Basically, his diagnosis (GP had never met him as he was diagnosed as a child).

So five words - just a bald diagnosis - was 'ample'.

Now for my husband we have submitted reams of info but I think he will be turned down - again.

f you submitted loads and were successful don't kid yourself that is why and that means you're somehow in the know. My son got enhanced and enhanced with no F2F and just 5 words scrawled on the back of a fag packet. Husband - reams of info and audiology print outs but guess what? None of the descriptors take into account deaf people. Well not enough to gain them the points they need.

Not always. My dad who has a host of issues, both physical and mental. He is really in a sorry state. He's in chronic pain. He sent in loads of proof and letters from the Drs, he was denied DLA for years.
It was a massive mistake, and it was sorted eventually, but the proof from the Drs wasn't any help. In fact, when one of the top managers in DLA were dealing with his case, as it had been turned down so many times, she was shocked that he was ever even given a face to face appointment.
He is,and has been on opiates for pain- 2different ones. Mood stabilisers for bipolar, antidepressants, warfarin for his blood clotting disorder. He live in pain from where he had a DVT years ago. These issues may not sound big but throughout his 40s he consistently went to the Drs asking if they could remove his legs because the pain he was in. Even with opiates he can nnly walk with a stick.

Medical evidence should be the way thpugh

It might just be a coincidence I suppose that I submitted lots of paperwork and got a high award but it's a strategy that's worked for me several times and for others I've helped too. It doesn't harm my application to submit the evidence and I have all the paperwork and an ongoing diary so for me it makes more sense to keep doing it that way. Though I won't be reassessed for at least 9 years as they were satisfied from the papers I sent that I needed an ongoing award, with no face to face either. I haven't had to withhold any of my reports from the PIP assessors as all of them are pretty negative in terms of prospects and improvement all the way through.

My doctor was astounded when my pip was denied. I sent in letters from from everyone.
It doesn't matter if they've already decided your outcome.
I recieve the highest award in one part and medium in another.
Awarded by the tribunal. I wasn't in that meeting long. Didn't even say all i wanted to say.
I was very happy that it was made clear they knew that i was not lying.
When i looked theough the forms why they had over turned the assessor i understood why they had missed things out and lied about others as otherwise i would have been awarded the pip from the very start.
Sadly from my support group i'm not the only person this has happened to.
I think they count on ypu not taking them to the tribunal.

So do you get to see what the assessor writes about you? Does the assessor see your initial application form? Or are they just judging on that meeting? Because I'm lucky I don't "look" visually impaired - no cane or guide dog but have difficulty with a lot of daily tasks. If they do it all on face value I foresee being turned down.

Yes Lollipop but you have to ask for it.

They are meant to, a) ask you a series of questions which you answer that should coincide with the answers you've given in your application form.

For instance. In my ESA assessment, the assessor put in his report something along the lines of 'pixies descriptions match those in the day to day activities'.

For PIP. She was a complete and utter clueless bint. She was a nurse who had no knowledge of a complex neurological condition, never mind the rest of it. The first thing she said to me was I haven't seen your 'notes' (forms) and the decision was made off that alone.

This is how thick they are, a friend once said to me, they'd scored them on the points for not being able to communicate with strangers and then gone on to say they can complete an unfamiliar journey independently. They're sly like that.

Halogreen, yes we do the same, with ongoing collection of letters etc and I get enhanced PIP and SG ESA, they always refer to the letters and care plan etc in their reports, which I always ask for and keep copies of as well.

It can be an idea to speak to the consultants secretary and get copies of the letters they write. Even if DWP are not very good at times with the Evidence after doing a paper appeal once, the Appeals service were (that time I didn't fill in the reassessment form properly and asked they to see previous, which is why the assessor, who did the assessment paper based, changed the award and needed to appeal)

I think it may also depend on how your evidence shows you meet the criteria, for example with a care plan it outlines the support you need, whereas some letters etc just state about what condition you have.

I don't think they are thick, they can be quite cunning.

In my experience It's not about submitting loads of evidence it's submitting the right evidence that matches what you can/ can't do

And how you are on the day/ you actually need to fit the descriptors

There is no point in saying you have problems with mobility no matter how bad it is if you can walk from the car to the reception even with someone helping you or on sticks

Thats a fail before you have even been seen by an assessor. The walk from car park to reception is always more than 20 meters
If you have any mobility problems you are always taken to the room that is furthest away in order to judge your mobility .Again always more than 20 meters away .
If you manage this it's a fail 99 percent of the time

Im my experience of helping family members with pip / esa forms
If you work and try to get PIP your often contradicting what your putting down on the PIP form

For example if you work in a office it's assumed that you can sit for more than 30 mins unaided
That you can walk to get from one area to the next unaided
That you can pick up files , work unaided
Can follow both simple and complex instructions
Make cups of tea , need no assistance to eat your lunch
That you can use a computer
That you can get from home to work

All of these are at odds with the questions on the form

Picking up files at work would be seen as manual dexterity so therefore you can pick up cutlery so from that one thing you can cook ,wash , & dress yourself

Using a computer means you can concentrate for set periods so no brain fog / memory problems and can input instructions and follow them

It can also mean no problems with hands / fingers dextirity for putting on clothes , buttons

Getting to work from home means no prompting / social awareness problems so score 0 for mobility

Sitting at a desk unaided means you can transfer from one position to the next so no mobility problems

Eating lunch at work means no problems with your social care , eating
All of these are all questions on the PIP forms which is why if you work getting PiP is very very hard

To get high rate mobility generally you have to be able not to walk, need to use a wheelchair and not be able to push it yourself
Basically if you can't walk and you need someone to push you in a wheelchair you can't work .

It's why so many mobility cars have been taken back because originally DlA was set up to help people with the cost of being disabled
Car were to help people mobilise / get to work

Now it's a case of if you work then your mobile and all of the above applies therefore no mobility allowance

If it's taken from a being at home perspective the same applies

So questions like what do you do all day , give me a typical day in your life might be answered by saying something like I watch TV. , read , sit down collect kids from school visit parents , doctors , hospital appointments , occasionally go out / go shopping

This is interpreted as watching TV = concentration. Ability to focus , follow storylines also most Tv programes are more than 30 mins so implies you can sit for more than 30 mins with no pain / discomfort so means 0 points for mobility

Reading books as above but also implies manual dextirity to turn pages over, so no points for using any AIDS

Collecting kids from school implies no mobility and no problems with planing routes , awareness .

Same for doctors appointments it's implies that you have read the letter , understood it , planned a journey and implemented it

Even getting to the PIP /ESA appointment will imply this as it often contradicts what someone has put on the form about going out planning stuff . .
If you put on the form you can't plan journey , can't go out alone but turn up for the Assement that's miles away and requires buses & trains it contradicts someone saying that they can't do this
This is why many mental health / mobility assements are often done in the next town or city

If you can take your tablets with no one to help open the bottle this implies manual dexterity of your hands so no problems with anything else that require use of hands so no points for using AIDS

It also implies that your able to take different tablets , different times of the day so no problems with memory /planning stuff so you lose points for this

If you hand over evidence big folders with lots of stuff in it again it shows you can pick up more than the mythical empty box which is on the form .It also shows that your organised ., methodical , can plan , follow instructions to a certain extent .

If you hand over a box of tablets from your handbag. .this is seen as bending down to pick up bag from floor , opening the bag & giving tablets
All of this points to no problems with your ability to bend , reach , open the bag , hand over tablets .so again no points for anything that requires AIDS for doing stuff

If you go smartly dressed with lots of buttons / laces in trainers, nails manicured and polished & hair neatly tied back and brushed.

This implies that you have no problems with your hands with regards to dressing , getting dressed , doing up buttons brushing your hair , concentrating on painting nails & social awareness of looking presentable .

It why you read stuff on here with people complaining there was loads of lies on the forms because I picked up my handbag / someone handed it to me is interpreted as you did it yourself = no points

Or I was well dressed so said I couldn't have mental health problems

It's crap but it's the way it is .

Sorry that was rather long

Mobility is a funny one. You can still get the mobility element and be fully mobile or rather mobileish. I did. But then i have a condition that means if it hits then i go from fully mobile to zero mobility and have to abandon my car and get help etc

Disagree. Dh had all his consultant letters. At assessment she took the 'you look ok to me' stance. Denied. Pointless.

Collecting kids from school implies no mobility and no problems with planing routes , awareness.

Yes this was brought up in my report. But it shows how ludicrous the descriptors are. I am a single parent. There IS no one else to do the school runs. Even then on my worst days I still have to ask DM to pick them up.

This is why I think the ruling about walking through pain is not an acceptable standard should be applicable in situations like this. I am in so much pain some evenings I often sleep in the armchair as I cant make it up the stairs.

Ok. they seem to use my care plan a lot and as have severe MH (history of psychosis / on antipsychotics) don't usually do F2F - usually paper based or occasional home visit.

I'd advise anyone with a long term condition to get a care plan with the GP, or for Mh they do recovery plans with the MH team. They ask for care plans in the things they look at.

It could help with long term conditions, and if ongoing. My concern is they are supposed to review it and they don't; (GPs) probably as I still need it, but if you also send the copies of prescriptions with it it shows, your condition meds, carers details etc and the extra support you need.

I believe SS also do care plans for people as well.

I'm taking note of all this. Was denied ESA for a lot of the same reasons (I showed up and wasn't "unkempt"). I have to appeal it - have to - but every time this stupid crapping system fucks me over in a new and different way, I just get more depressed, anxious and suicidal. Win-win for them, eh?

Well, for MH I did a paper appeal, but had lots of evidence so may be an option Preemptive. or take someone with you, it;s meant to be better to attend I think, but we wrote to say I was;t due to the MH and that the psychosis is stress related (as it is)

Benefits and work is a good site as well..to help and CAB too.