To think Kris Jenner should be bloody well ashamed of herself?

[WanderingNotLost]

And Caitlyn too, FWIW..

Warning: Daily Mail link

This girl is nineteen. NINETEEN and already she's had lip fillers, breast implants and fat injections into her bum, so many procedures that she's unrecognisable from the beautiful young woman she used to be. How much of a complex about her looks must she have grown up with, to have jumped straight into all this as soon as she was old enough?? And tragically, she's being held up as someone for teenage girls to look up to, and aspire to be like. It makes me feel sick.

Sorry, I thought she was Armenian but was mistaken. That's just the elder sisters. So just class then.

So if you're a 'naice' girl your boobs are art. But if you come from a trashy nouveau riche family you're destroying the world single handedly.

I am constantly trying to encourage all the young women I know to be comfortable with their bodies and realise that people are so much more valuable than just superficial appearance, but the reality is that they see these girls on the covers of all the magazines, making all the money, and of course they associate this false image with perfection and success. They won't look at a picture and think oh it's photoshop and make up and lighting, they'll just think, that's what I need to look like in order to be happy/liked/fancied by boys/whatever.

I'm not angry at Kylie herself. If anything, I feel sorry for her.

Even her eldest sister is getting in on the action. Naked photo shoot, for no apparent reason whatsoever.

Where does it stop? Is it going to get to the point where all young women want to have surgery, to have Jessica rabbit lips, tits and ass, and no natural, unaltered woman is considered acceptable anymore?

And all this stuff about 'society shouldn't tell women how they should look' stuff is bullshit. If people really believed that they wouldn't be trying to impose their own view of how women should be onto other women

And really, this is just a very fancy pile of slut shaming dressed up as feminism

So, if we have an opinion on the effect the Kardashian women have on their younger female fans we're slut shaming? That's ridiclous.

All of them are self obsessed narcissists who care about nothing other then extracting money from fans.

Boobs are not art they are body parts, they have been commercialized, how sad.

"If people really believed that they wouldn't be trying to impose their own view of how women should be onto other women."

How women should look is up to them but personally I find it monumentally sad that any woman should endure pain and possible harm to make herself look like a babie.

If a woman has big painful breasts I'd be totally supportive or surgery, because that is a medical thing, it can hurt he back and all kinds of things.

And I do not stand outside cosmetic clinics with a plaque! But I do think that women are sold a lie about how to be loved, desired, how to be respected and how to find happiness and it is not for their well-being or benefit.

It is to make them, and their bodies, - commodities. And I am not sure how you can argue with that because actually large sums of money are involved.

"And really, this is just a very fancy pile of slut shaming dressed up as feminism."

Nothing to do with 'sluts', I don't use the word and didn't use it here. It's nothing to do with having sex or being sexy, it's to do with making a market for a product. make women feel uncomfortable and unhappy and rake in the cash!

So depressing, must end on a lighter note.

Love this...

billsykes you're being ridiculous now.. I said it's sad that you or any woman feels she needs bigger lips,boobs,bum. I didn't mention what your preferred change is

If a woman or man for that matter wants to have cosmetic surgery then absolutely that is their choice..

No one needs feminists approval to get a boob job, you do know that yeh?

So why are so many of them on this thread tut tutting about how much they disapprove and how it shouldn't happen?

I don't think that is true, many men are not fabulous looking and spend much less time and effort on their appearance yet women flock to them and marry them

People mate with people they fancy. The most important part of that is physical attraction. Yes you're going to need other things like intelligence and a sense of humour to sustain anything long term, but if people are being realistic rather than pretending that the world fits in with their ideology I think they would admit that if you're not attractive enough for somebody to think having sex with you would be quite nice you will get less chances to get to that point. Teenage girls have posters of Harry Styles on their bedroom walls. Not Stephen Hawking or Mark Zuckerburg. My generation swooned over Mark's cute face and Robbie's abs. Not Gary Barlow's amazing song writing talents.

And it is slut shaming. It's an awful pious Mary Whitehouse pearl clutching response. How 'sad' that it is that a young woman should decide to do something with her body that differs from what you've decided is best for your own. And the huge moral judgement that they are keeping doctors from 'saving lives'. If a woman is so unhappy with a part of her body she is prepared to undergo a surgery which carries a risk I can't see a problem with that.

I do believe it comes from the same place as burka wearing as a lot of the disapproval seems to stem from the fact that a young woman openly wants to appear in a sexually attractive way and is prepared to go to some lengths to achieve it. And then has to face stern tut tutting about how she should be happy with what she had and put up with it.

Incidentally, why is it assumed that women are so weak minded that we can't look at other women who have bigger boobs or are thinner or have a bigger behind without developing raging anorexia or body dysmorphia? I really don't see anybody hand wringing about how Men's Health or Attitude is going to brainwash the poor ickle boys.

It really astounds me that some so called feminists seem to hate other women so much just because they don't fit into their very narrow box of what a woman should be.

It's Kylie's body, Kylie's choice.

pedro, but I just said I would have surgery on my boobs (a lift and my areola made smaller if you must know). However you instantly assumed that it would be an enlargement as that's what is seen as sexually attractive. You didn't just say changed, you said bigger as you were assuming that surgery would be done for the purpose of being sexually attractive and I believe that says a lot about why you're being judgy.

It's just a form of slut shaming dressed up as being some sort of intellectual considered concern. Women take a kicking no matter what they do to their bodies. Too fat, too thin, too saggy, too plastic. It's just another way of giving other women a good kicking over their appearance whilst virtue signalling about how morally superior the speaker is because they have virtuous saggy boobs or flat bum.

Nobody is talking about sexually promiscuity here, unless we're assuming that big boobs = slut, in which case as somebody with e cups I can assure that isn't the case.

I'm not judging Kylie for wanting a bigger ass/lips/boobs. I'm judging her Mother for not teaching her to believe that she was lovely as she was. I'm judging the family as a whole for projecting this unrealistic fantasy into their young impressionable fans as something to be admired purely from what it is on the surface.

Young girls save up their money so they can buy lip kits because they want to look like Kylie Jenner. But Kylie Jenner doesn't even look like Kylie Jenner anymore. Kylie Jenner is a slim white girl with thin lips and freckles. What her fans are seeing now isn't real.

I thought kylie was pretty before and i think she still is.
I wouldn't have had all that personally but i'm not her.
I think yabu to blame her for how your niece feels about her body.
What kylie does with her body is up to her. if she wants cosmetics procedures done then she should be able to have them, without being blamed for how another person feels about their body ( i may not be making as much sense i have no idea why i am up).
I'd concentrate on building up your nieces esteem.

avamiah your comment is awful. She may not have treated him right ( according to caitylin, who knows, we don't know the full story) but her becoming a woman has no bearing on kris what so ever.

I'm not judging Kylie for wanting a bigger ass/lips/boobs. I'm judging her Mother for not teaching her to believe that she was lovely as she was.
Really? Whose says they didn't? My family did. I still would have had a boob job as i was small chested for years.
Kylie had very thin lips, it severly effected her self esteem. You can tell your kid they're lovely till you're blue in the face, doesn't mean it will make any difference.

I'm not judging Kylie for wanting a bigger ass/lips/boobs. I'm judging her Mother for not teaching her to believe that she was lovely as she was.

How do you know she didn't? How do you know her attitude wasn't 'you're lovely as you are but if you want to change I'll support that too'?

I'm judging the family as a whole for projecting this unrealistic fantasy into their young impressionable fans as something to be admired purely from what it is on the surface.

But surely by the same token rather than blaming it on the Kardashians the same should be true of these fans who should have had self esteem instilled by their mothers too? Surely if young girls can't cope with seeing the Kardashians they have issues with self esteem which are problems which go much deeper than a picture in a magazine and are more to do with how people they have close relationships with have made them feel worth?

It's very easy to tut, tut over a young famous woman and make her responsible for all the ills in the world. But secure, happy young women who know they are valued for things other than their looks aren't going to dissolve into wibbling heaps at the sight of Kylie Jenner. The problems behind that sort of self esteem issue are probably closer to home. And again, it's sexist and patronises young women to assume they are so feeble minded that they can't look at pictures of celebrities without somehow being corrupted.

I don't mind a woman doing things with her body that I am not keen on. I once had a perm, I expect most women don't them these days.

But painful, expensive, hard to reverse things, yes I am fucking sad that women feel the need to do that to be acceptable to men.

We are not talking here about one procedure but a whole way society expects women to appear.

It has nothing to do with 'sluts' at all. I cannot convince you but I think slut shaming here is totally the wrong approach. It's not about sex, it's about commercialism.

No pearls in my house!

'huge moral judgement', I am entitled to make judgement, you know, and by their nature judgement will be moral. But they are not about individual people they are about the society we have developed. i am quite angry with all the naked selfie shit because we are telling our kids not to take and send naked selfies and then 'celebs' come along and do it!

"If a woman is so unhappy with a part of her body she is prepared to undergo a surgery which carries a risk I can't see a problem with that."

That's fine. Honestly, people can do what they want.

What about little girls, do they learn to be unhappy with their bodies. I am not fan of Dove, in fact I don't buy it because of their ingredients, but their video clip sums it up nicely...

Contains scenes of surgery

Burkeah wearing and making women obsess about their bodies all come from patriarchy so yeah they come from the same place, but is is different aspects of control.

"Incidentally, why is it assumed that women are so weak minded that we can't look at other women who have bigger boobs or are thinner or have a bigger behind without developing raging anorexia or body dysmorphia?

Many women do suffer with anorexia and it is awful, really awful.

And boys and men are not sexually displayed on the TV, on the internet, on bill boards and advertising all the time in the way women are. There is less likely to be one ideal of how men should look but there are ample examples of a very standardized image of 'woman' - usually spelled G I R L.

"It really astounds me that some so called feminists seem to hate other women so much just because they don't fit into their very narrow box of what a woman should be."

I do not hate any women for being women, if I hated them surely I would be content for other women to spend their lives chasing surgeries and treatments to endless fight the ageing process and to be men's fantasy women.

What you perceive as hate is actually concern for all women. Not necessarily the surgically enhanced ones on our TV screens but the little girls of 5 and 6 who will soon start to diet and hate their bodies.

Bill, I don't even really think you believe this crap yourself. But don't tell me I hate women, I never have nor never will.

"It's Kylie's body, Kylie's choice." Of course, always, but I hope one day we as a society will see how vapid that really is.

Saggy boobs aren't virtuous but neither are pert ones. This is not about one procedure someone has done that makes them feel happier with their body.

I totally do not feel any animosity for a person who has a procedure they wish to have (honestly) but i do feel as a society we place too much store on having the perfect body (for women) which is often unnaturally proportined and not medically sound.

(Which, mine may well be but for very different reasons!)

Anyway, nice chatting.

Night night

I think maybe a lot of modern humans are ' feeble minded'. We have become a naval gazing, boob gazing, quivering mess. (Collectively, not individuals, there are still some pretty amazing individuals out there.)

It has nothing to do with 'sluts' at all. I cannot convince you but I think slut shaming here is totally the wrong approach. It's not about sex, it's about commercialism.

Well, yes it is. You just said she (and other women) were doing it because they wanted to be 'acceptable to men' which you disapprove of. Leaving aside the fact she may have done it for herself, you are saying that you disapprove of a woman doing something because part of the reason is to appear sexually attactive to men. And yes that is slut shaming. It's the idea that wanting to appear sexually attractive is somehow wrong or bad or dangerous and not a valid personal choice if you fancy maximising your chances of getting a shag. Because of course, it must all be about men's pleasure and it couldn't possibly be the case that she actually wanted to feel sexy and attractive and enjoy having sex herself could it?

Don't you find it more than just coincidental that the modifications she might be "doing for herself" are precisely the things that the most banal forms of men would find appealing? Isn't it funny how the things she's "doing for herself" don't involve getting facial tattoos or shaving her head or (god forbid) growing her pubic hair?

Yeah, you don't hate other women. You just dismiss them as 'vapid' just because they've made different choices from you.

Lots of people would dismiss middle aged slightly overweight women dressed head to toe in Joules or Boden as vapid and I'm sure that would draw quite an indignant response about sexism/ageism/body shaming from the MN masses.

Yet apparently a young woman's body is fair game for criticism and judginess just because her choices are different from our own. And all under the guise that women shouldn't be made to feel bad about their bodies.

Don't you find it more than just coincidental that the modifications she might be "doing for herself" are precisely the things that the most banal forms of men would find appealing?

There it is again. Disapproval because she might be doing something to make herself attractive to men. It is bloody slut shaming. It is from the same place as the burka. That somehow making yourself look sexually attractive is bad and morally wrong.

Really? You don't think we can do better than raise our daughters to aspire to be fuckable?

Did I say that? No. But do I think that if women want to appear fuckable they are somehow bad or wrong or doing something worthy of condemnation or are somehow morally defective? No.

It is disturbing, I've got younger relatives, their feeds are full of self hatred. Literal self hatred, become they're oh so ugly and need so much 'work' doing. The obsessions totally blow me away, this waist training is all down to the Kardashians. Girls spending pocket money on a version of a corset so they get that hourglass look.

I actually got a message from one saying would I edit some pictures for her. I thought she meant for school or for a scrap book, so said of course, just say what you want. The poor girl had photos of herself where she'd scribbled arrows saying, beauty spot / dimples, arched brows, fuller cheeks, bigger boobs but narrow waist. Her illusion of what her waist should look like was crazy. A U shape near her fluff cutting away her thighs so a visible thigh gap. I messaged her back and said girls would be impressed at the photoshop but she doesn't look like that, she's really skinny, totally gorgeous and should embrace it.

She'd actually been given hand me downs that some were once mine, when Tammy Girl / Mark One was all the rage. She moaned the bras had no padding. Primark do bras that boost you by 2 cups. When I was a teenager having a bra was a big thing as it used to be crop tops. Now teenagers want the illusion of being 2 sizes bigger. I do admit at her age I was a D/DD. Small boobs were all the rage though, I think a 34B/C was the perfect size. These bras were so pretty, I wish I could still wear nice fancy ones.

I tried to explain that having a smaller bust affords you prettier bras, a huge selection, plus by 18 a chiro was having to crack my thoracic vertebrae. The subject changed onto thigh gaps & waist trainers, the latter only being £20. I said women were relieved not to wear corsets, it'd be damaging for her growing back, as back deformation runs in the family.

I'm used to giving them advice, once it was about the complexities of being a teenager after sending what amounted to be nudes to boys, that day a friend had her pictures sent around school. So I told her not to panic, that she should value herself more, plus that he'd be in trouble with the police for soliciting nudes of a minor. Please God don't do it again, any lad that asks you doesn't have respect for you.

I do believe the way Kylie in particular was so young when she transformed, girls are pretty much saying thanks for the money for a car, but I'd rather have bigger boobs & lips. One thing I got as a Christmas present from a wish list was a contouring kit & Dior lip plumper, which I admit I've had before but didn't do all that much. They make home made formulas with chillis, to apply as a mask before doing their lips in the school loo's.

That's one good thing about my ex, her money for a car & house deposit won't be released unless it's for that. I've never hear my son worry about what's in his pants, but he does actually do press ups whilst watching TV as he wants a 6 pack. He loves the garage full of fitness fads like the stomach crunch bars, almost a circle, but rolled either side to make crunches easier. Weights too!

I agree, OP. Sad stuff. I would hate for my daughter to be inspired by any of this, or my son to think this is what 'beauty' is supposed to be.

We can only hope they have other, stronger, influences in their lives.

Vile programe with vile people in it. That stupid woman and her daft kids must be held responsible to a certain degree for cases of body image issues suffered by youngsters that watch this garbage.

It's a societal problem, really. With how prevalent social media is these days, so many people seem obsessed with what I'd call the "pursuit of perfection". You know, do this, do that and you'll be liked. Have this, have that and you'll be popular. Be this, be that, and you'll be loved.

The way I see it the Kardashians aren't the cause but a byproduct of the times. Not saying this is a new phenomenon of course. It's just a lot more accessible these days and thus that's what makes it easier for people to be sucked in to the whole mess.

Their fans are what makes them. No point selling something if there's no one to purchase it.