Not sure what to do re FIL comment

[BluePeppers]

At the weekend, we went to see my PIL. Nice discussion and then FIL started to go on at how it was really necessary to do something about all those immigrants as the uk was invaded and there was only 60% of true English in the country anymore. Followed by 'oh but I don't mean you'.

I am from a European country and have been here for 20 years, married with his ds for 19.... we have two dcs who have a dual citizenship (so really his comment could easily apply to the dcs too)

MIL tried her best to save the whole thing by mentioning invasions by the vikings etc... (I think she was horrified). I just went quiet.

Now this is playing in my mind. DH has brushed all that under the carpet. But somehow I'm dreading going back to see them. We rarely talk about politics and they've never expressed any views like this. this has rattled me though....

The 'kicking people on the ground' refers to all the threats that the CURRENT government has done.
It's the little line saying that 'you should be ready the leave the country' when the Permanent Residence Card is rejected.
It's the questions when you enter the country to see whether you are working/have a medical, insurrance etc... even though, being an EU citizens you do NOT need any of that. I.e. As long as you're u are self sufficient/a student, yu don't need to have a medical insurrance. I have heard that some people have been turned back at immigration of those reasons (would need to be checked as this would be illegal BUT TM has issue guidelines that state exactely that so ....)
It's all the talk about using people, all the EU citizens as bargaining chips.

What you are talking about when you say that UK acts with generosity towards people from other lands and other cultures is how people USED to feel about the UK and why all the recent decisions have hurt immigrants so hard.

So yes you are right, the UK used to be very welcoming.
And people are also right to feel very hurt by the consequence of Brexit and the way we have/are being treated.

OP, thank you, you've put it beautifully. That's exactly how I, and many others that I know, feel. I know several families who have already made the decision to leave, uprooting their children and leaving the country that they had until now chosen to make their home. DH and I came very close but decided to stay for now, but almost certainly not forever.

And yes. As an EU citizen, the vote (and the rhetoric that came with it) was a vote TO GET ME OUT. No matter how many times Brexiters claim it had nothing to do with it. It ALL boils down to that. Even assuming that our rights are fully granted (without having to jump through hoops, filling out 85-page forms and providing 20-year-old paperwork that no other EU country demands of its immigrants from the UK) the damage is already done. As OP said, I never saw myself as an "immigrant" here - until now. I was simply a European Citizen, settled in Europe. That's all irrevocably changed and yes, I resent it.

What you are talking about when you say that UK acts with generosity towards people from other lands and other cultures is how people USED to feel about the UK and why all the recent decisions have hurt immigrants so hard.

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes! The UK changed overnight. Not only in its attitudes to NEW immigrants but to those of us who have made our lives here for 20+ years. That hurts, and for me there is unlikely to be a way back.

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes! The UK changed overnight. Not only in its attitudes to NEW immigrants but to those of us who have made our lives here for 20+ years. That hurts, and for me there is unlikely to be a way back.

Yes again from me! I have just posted about this on the Great Britain thread. The mood has changed - it's nasty now and people aren't afraid to say things they would have been ashamed to admit to a few years ago.

To be fair OP your FiL probably wasn't talking about you, some people are capable of massive feats of doublethink. Farage's wife isn't English is she? And Boris and his wife both have immigrant heritage.

I think the whole mood of the country is tragically down to working people getting less of a share of the cake in modern times. When there's plenty of cake people are happy to share. When there's less, then they are less generous.

Very interesting discussion thank you for your points of view

Can I just ask, surely the UK will need to make some kind of deal with the eu regarding this stuff though, as I understand there are thousands of English that life in Europe, retired in spain, malta etc - so they will want to safeguard their futures - surely they will not just tell people that they aren't allowed permanent residence anymore

Your FiL is essentially a bigot, and you need to think carefully about how much you want him around your children, and indeed how much you want to be around him.

Re the immigration figures, if they're based on people born abroad they're misleading anyway - but I always get the distinct impression that that is entirely intentional so as to whip up even more fear and prejudice. It is inevitable that there will be a large proportion of British citizens who were born abroad because we have a colonial past, and we also have armed forces stationed abroad for long periods. Plus, of course, substantial numbers of British citizens live abroad for work purposes or just because they want to. It is inevitable that all those people will have children born abroad who will then go down in the stats as scary immigrants.

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes! The UK changed overnight. Not only in its attitudes to NEW immigrants but to those of us who have made our lives here for 20+ years. That hurts, and for me there is unlikely to be a way back.

I don't think it did change over night, I just think the ignorant, racist people suddenly felt they had a free pass to spout their bullshit openly and publicly.

Many many British born people do not feel like this and are deeply ashamed by these views and are very frustrtated that it is being assumed that overnight all British people suddenly felt like this.

Can I just ask, surely the UK will need to make some kind of deal with the eu regarding this stuff though, as I understand there are thousands of English that life in Europe, retired in spain, malta etc - so they will want to safeguard their futures - surely they will not just tell people that they aren't allowed permanent residence anymore

I'm sure you're right - there will be some sort of agreement - but even if it covers things like full access to the NHS, pensions etc (as we'll all get old and sick one day), as I said above the damage is already done and many of us no longer want to stay. And even worse, new, qualified talent that the country badly needs is no longer arriving.

We've been told in many, many ways that we're second class citizens, e.g all the examples quoted by OP in a previous post. And also this, from Tinkly:

When there's plenty of cake people are happy to share. When there's less, then they are less generous.

Personally, I resent that. I have NEVER taken even a slice of the benefit cake, instead I've contributed more than my share. Until Brexit killed my business, I was employing several people - and my (also EU) DH runs a business that employs many more. Between us we've paid a LOT of tax over the years, which we've been happy to do as we both firmly believe in Social Justice.

As I posted above, EU immigrants contribute £3bn/year in tax, versus costing £0.5 bn in services. So by making us feel less welcome and making it harder to come here, the UK cake will shrink, quite significantly. UK universities are already crying out that they're losing a fortune in fees since EU students are no longer coming in the numbers they used to. And the NHS is no longer able to recruit the doctors and nurses from abroad that it urgently needs (since the Tories have also slashed funds for developing home-grown talent).

LittleGrey: Many many British born people do not feel like this and are deeply ashamed by these views and are very frustrtated that it is being assumed that overnight all British people suddenly felt like this.

We know many of you don't. Some of my closest British friends have cried with me, and are actively campaigning to change the direction that things are going in. But it was a shock/revelation just how many people feel like that - and how engrained it is in the establishment. I'm afraid I can't consider a country run by Theresa May "home". I wish the election system was fairer and reflected the true will of the people, but have to accept that it is what it is.

Sadly, I'm between a rock and a hard place as my family and friends in several EU countries do seem to assume that these views are held by the majority of Brits, no matter how much I argue the contrary. And the UK is definitely seen as a weak laughing stock. I'm just as upset about this as if I was British myself. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion :(

You've taken what I said the wrong way Itsa. It's definitely the case that life is harder for many people than it was 10 years ago: wages are not keeping pace with the cost of living, job security is poor and essential services are being run down. There is less cake.

Of course many immigrants make a massive contribution. But when things get tough it is human nature to blame the outsider. Not saying it's right.

I was just thinking the same as you, Sarah.

My Dp's mother can't stand 'The Irish' for some reason, I told her about my Irish grandfather. I will do it again if she pipes up, and if she starts on about any other immigrants I'll do the same.

I understand that Tinkly. But my point is that immigration OVERALL increases the cake for everyone in the UK (specifically EU immigration).

And yes, it's human nature to blame the outsider. That's exactly why I and many others no longer feel welcome here. Those of us with choices (doctors, nurses, builders and other qualified workers) will be the first to leave, taking our tax contributions with us.

Dreamily, that's what people mean by feeling like bargaining chips. They don't know whether they'll be able to stay, and no one's so far been able to give any kind of convincing reassurance that they will. It's all very well to say 'surely they'll make a deal' but this is people's entire lives, homes and families that are being called into question.

My workplace employs a lot of EU citizens (in high-level academic jobs as well as the service industries) and we've been getting specialist lawyers in to advise those people about their options. Even those lawyers haven't been able to give any concrete answers about what's going to happen, and the only practical advice really is to gather up as much evidence as possible about their time in the UK. Evidence that people mostly don't have, because when they came here 10 or 20 years ago, made lives here, started their families here, they could have had no idea that one day their right to be here could suddenly be called into question.

I have European colleagues who are doing amazingly well in their academic careers and were on a path to something amazing. They are now all feeling utterly deflated and saying they aren't going to bother applying for the next 'stage' in their careers because they may not be able to stay here. And even if they can, they feel so utterly unwelcome that the aren't even sure if they want to. After spending their entire adult lives here.

It's heartbreaking.

I would remind him if it ever 'became necessary to do something about all those immigrants', I assume he is meaning sending them back. That you would all emigrate.

My Mum whittles on Daily Mail style about 'the immigrants' forgetting she has just returned from Spain, and that my OH's workplace relies on immigrant workers and would move abroad if it needed to

This reminds me a bit of my ex partner who, three years ago when UKIP were at their peak, went on a rant about how he understood why people were voting for them because of all the immigrants coming over here, taking jobs and benefits (Schrodinger's Immigrant, maybe?), getting to the top of the housing queue and using up NHS resources. I objected by sending him a Holly McNish poem and he told me that I would never understand as I lived in a privileged, middle-class bubble, unaffected by immigration.

Which was interesting, as I'm from an immigrant family. I took the whole thing rather personally, since at the time I was in receipt of some government help and my mother, a 1st generation immigrant, was receiving intensive NHS treatment for terminal cancer.

I ended the relationship a month later. I'm not sure whether he connected the dots.

An Ancestry DNA test is always an interesting idea. Being a family history addict, I did one and found out I'm a whole splendid 5% British, so should probably go back to where I came from. Then again, I also found out that, within that 5%, is a direct line to King Henry I (30 Great-grandfather's ago), son of William the Conqueror (the fucking immigrant). I'm not sure if this makes me a stalwart of British Heritage, or if I should still go back to where I came from (Normandy).

sarah yes you're right, there is. Thing about the 'good immigrant' and the 'bad immigrant'.
Sometimes it comes down to skin colour, sometimes to citizenship, sometimes to how much you can or can't contribute to the society, sometimes to your social class (I think we have a bit of all of that in the UK).

I also agree that this isn't new. It's more the fact that this was something that always existed but wasn't visible. It was hidden because not socially acceptable. Now it's out in the open.
In some ways, it makes it worse for me though because these are the exact sort of attitude that always made me say that I would never move to the US. So it doesn't convince me to stay in the uk :(

dream can I say thank you for accepting to go into the discussion and listen to other POV. It's very nice when there is a poster like this on MN. All too often it degenerate into 'well if you aren't happy, go back home. We aren't welcome anyway' so I really appreciate it.

Op - how offended are you by FIL's comments? Sufficient to not speak to him again, as some posters are suggesting?

I have a friend who's a white South African of Dutch ancestory who moved here 15 years ago with her children, she voted leave and goes on about immigrants moving here 🙄 I told her she'll be one of the first to be sent back once we leave Europe 😂 She's also incredibly racist about black South Africans, so I've had some interesting conversations with her, especially as my boyfriend is mixed race.

I despair at some people 🙁

Re FIL, I have been thinking about other instances where he has been grumbling (about the doctor who isn't English and none of the consultants are anymore etc...)
Maybe he is actually a bit of a twat (or lets misguided) but it feels so wrong to look at him in that way.
It's a real shame. I normally get on quite well with him.

Hillarious I was shocked. Shocked because it felt so much out of place and unlike him.
As per my last post, I'm struggling to reconcile the idea of him being so ignorant and the image I've always had of him.

No way I'm going to stop speaking to him again. For once, that would mean not talking to MIL too and she is lovely.
But the more I think about it, the more I need to speak to DH so we have some sort of stock answer if he starts again.

I am a dual citizen courtesy of my immigrant DM who has lived and worked all her adult life here. I look more traditionally like I'm from my DM's origin country. In the aftermath of the referendum I have had people accuse me of being here just for the benefits and telling me to go home. This is my home, I was born here and have never lived anywhere else. I'm not on any benefits either. But some people think its ok now to hurl abuse at people who look wrong.

I thought we'd left this behind in the 1980/90s. My DC aren't learning to be ashamed of their British origin from me. They're learning it from the actions of certain Brits and those who would defend them, and the inaction of others.

blue my PGM was very like this - the result is my ILs know full well I am proud to have mixed heritage and that my DC also have full access to it so they just don't go there. The one time MIL made a slightly off comment in front of my DC, DD pointed out MIL had family of a darker skin tone. Gotta love the innocence of children sometimes

Yes, DH's family are the same. I've also (once!) gotten a borderline racist comment by FIL's brother (well, maybe he didn't mean it that way. But anybody talking about being "acutally white"/slightly mixed in that tone of voice is imo a racist...)

Anyhow. I'm not sure what to say.

FIL and I get a long very very well. He seems to be of a similar mind as yours.

It seems as if "I'm the right kind of foreigner" (my English is ok-ish, same religion, similar cultural values, a "desirable degree" /job, somewhat similar family background etc...) whereas others are the "wrong kind" (as you already mentioned above).

I myself have struggled with this as well. I'm not sure what advice I can give.

After the last Ice Age, Britain was empty. We are all immigrants from somewhere

I just love that post. I wonder what he would think if he discovered we all come from Africa in the first place. There were black people in this country (Roman Army) long before us Angles/Angels arrived here.

I wonder what he means by 'true English'.

Immigrants do not get all the benefits as soon as they enter the country. However, asylum seekers are treated differently and many of those are sent back.

Croatia - on holiday a couple of weeks back. Free Health Service, same day appointments with GP, for consultants probably a week. Why on earth do they come here, except to work.

Not a lot of help OP but it's reduced my anger at such nonsense.