Vegan and vegetarian

[MeowMeowMeowOink]

I am not an expert in either, nor do I believe in either eating habits/way of life/etc etc. (Not to be dismissive but my family for the last 100 years have been butchers!) This is not an attack on choices, more I am interested tell me more. (So I can be less ignorant. Not to change my views)

Just sent little party invites for DCs birthday, we are catering (putting out sarnies) so asked for dietry/allergy info (bloody hell children's parties are hard work, what ever happened to jam sandwiches and party rings..) had two rsvps so far, the first was we are veggie, the second vegan.

It's really got me thinking, where I haven't before now, why is there a difference? More thinking dairy, because male calves are killed in the dairy process, so what's the point in vegetarian, if you eat dairy, you still killing animals? That's just one example I think, it possibly applies to eggs too?

I'll add vi,life creamy to the list
I've heard people say no one will keep animals
Does it matter? I doubt the world is going to change to vegan anyway but why does it matter if we don't breed those animals?

Some interesting reasons here, seems like factory factory farming puts a lot of people off. I don't like meat or fish so don't miss them but I can see the mass farming is grim.

You can't be sort of vegan, it's a binary state. Vegan or non-vegan.

Sanity Right. You think it's worse to have no cows/pigs than lots of them living in horrific conditions?

Yeah that's exactly what I said............................

More insects are killed in the cultivation of crops than any other farming so if the rationale is based on cruelty, how can you square that with yourself?

IME generally speaking, vegetarians for health reasons, vegans for health and/or animal welfare reasons.

I don't eat meat and dairy for health reasons, but vegetarians that claim animal welfare as a reason is just bollocks, as like you say the dairy industry is awful.

Crops are also grown to feed animals reared for meat, so as well as killing farm animals you're also killing those insects as a meat eater. Less harm is done from being vegetarian/vegan.

Just offer sausages on sticks (meat eaters), cheese & pineapple (veggies) and jam sarnies (vegan) and you'll be fine. Personally I'd eat all 3 so do more sarnies!

More insects are killed in the cultivation of crops than any other farming so if the rationale is based on cruelty, how can you square that with yourself?

Got a credible link for that?

Another with a teen gone veggie for environmental rather than cruelty point of view.Luckily she likes a wide range of food and my initial worry that is was a good avoidance ploy have faded as the fridge is now raided for 'snacks'!

Personally I don't like putting dead flesh that was once a living breathing animal in my mouth and my body. I think of the dead flesh as similar to my own, my husband's or my baby's, because it is very similar in texture and in its make up.

I know the dairy industry is cruel and ideologically I think i should be vegan, however I would find this very challenging so I still eat dairy.

"some people are so inconsistent as to make it nonsensical."

It's really hard to be consistent, as animal cruelty is everywhere. Medicines are tested on animals and some even contain animal products. There is cruelty in the wool industry, and it turns out that even so-called fake fur contains real fur. I remember an episode of QI (so must be true, obvs) where Stephen Fry read out a long list of products that contained bits of pig, including car tyres. So it would be impossible to completely avoid animal cruelty without becoming a hermit.

I think we all know that you cannot live a completely cruelty-free life.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't make every effort to avoid causing unnecessary animal suffering whenever we can, though.

It's really hard to be consistent, as animal cruelty is everywhere

Yes, but I'm talking about people who will tell you that meat is murder and animal cruelty, but happily drink milk. Or people who eat meat only a few times a week. If you honestly think it is inherently cruel and a bad thing, how can you do it at all?
It's a bit like me saying killing people is wrong, so I've only done it a couple of times, so I'm doing my best to reduce the cruelty.

Killing is wrong and it happens all over the world. Children die in pointless wars, people drink and drive, we choose to buy cheap clothes produced through child labour. The human race are very good at ignoring cruelty and being inconsistent so why is it that Vegetarians are singled out for criticism? It seems that by making some effort to be more conscious of the impact your lifestyle and diet have, you instantly become more responsible for the worlds ills and accused of hypocrisy for not eschewing all dairy and leather. I don't get it.

We all lead lives of compromise all the time. Our whole society and economic system is exploitative, so arguably, we are complicit in some kind of cruelty whenever we buy most of the products available, use our cars, invest our savings, etc.

Just because we can't be perfect when it comes to animal cruelty, should we throw up our hands and decide that the whole industry is fine? Not in my opinion. We can reduce our use of it, try to buy ethically sourced eggs, support small organic farms, and do our best to be responsible while always remembering that we are not getting it "right".

Some people just choose to avoid eating dogs which have been tortured to death; some draw the line at veal and foie gras; some are veggie a few days a week; some people are vegans who don't own cars, grow their own veg, and avoid all plastic. I support anyone who is thinking about how the food they eat has an impact on the environment and on the lives of the animals and people we are all exploiting from the day we are born in a rich Western country.

Being vegetarian or vegan because you don't want to eat animals or cause suffering - don't forget the palm oil that is added to most of the stuff in the shops now, even pastry in veggie pies (Linda McCartney, Quorn etc.) and the impact that soya has on the environment and hormones.

I don't eat meat, I also avoid anything produced with palm oil because of the impact it has, even the so-called ethically produced palm oil. I am now cutting out as much soya as possible for the same reason, and also the effects on my own health.

I wish I had the strength of mind to become a vegan, but I need to do it one step at a time and get to grips with giving up things that have always been part of my life. Tea and coffee without milk is foul, vegetarian cheese is like soap.

Veganism is the latest trend, what about the soya? Japanese have a high rate of stomach cancer, they eat a lot of the stuff. What about the animals affected by the production of soya and palm oil, giving up dairy to save the calves at the expense of the orang utangs, elephants, tigers, or whatever that are becoming extinct? Cows are not going to become extinct.

It is not an easy choice either way.

There seems to be a real trend, both on mumsnet and in the wider world, of having a go at vegetarians or vegans for being either 'preachy' or not 100% ethically consistent at all times. Most other ethical and policitcal beliefs don't seem to attract the same accusation half as frequently.

I wonder if it's due to defensiveness, and that some of those non-veggies who criticize don't feel great about their dietary choices. Or maybe it's just a very tired trope.

Maybe it is a form of slut shaming ...? You know. "oh look at her eating tofu, and wearing LEATHER shoes! What a fucking hypocritical twat" etc.

I used to hand out leaflets outside McDonalds informing their clientele about rainforest deforestation and other unethical corporate practices - so I am not innocent of making people consider their food choices! In my defence it was all true, it was 1989 and I was 15 and choc full of youthful arogance

Eating vegan and wearing leather shoes - if you already owned the leather shoes you might as well.

I recently had a friend tell me she wants to go veggie but it's too expensive to replace her work shoes and I thought, why does she have to?! Tbh even I go fully vegan and link it to ethics I'll probably not tell anyone who asks. I always quote this but like Romesh Ranganayhan said "the abuse I get for being vegan makes me miss racism".

Though interestingly when I say my Indian ancestors didn't eat meat, some people shut up, maybe I'll keep using that one. .

Ranganathan, sorry, y next to t on keyboard.

why is it that Vegetarians are singled out for criticism? It seems that by making some effort to be more conscious of the impact your lifestyle and diet have, you instantly become more responsible for the worlds ills and accused of hypocrisy for not eschewing all dairy and leather. I don't get it

Come off the poor vegetarian act. They are only singled out for criticism when they tell others how much more ethical they are, when they aren't really. Reducing cruelty isn't enough when you are still doing the things you think are inherently cruel. It's logically inconsistent, which is fine until you put yourself on a higher ethical plane.

previously it is actually the highly salted, smoked foods, meat and fish that the Japanese diet includes that are the risk factors for stomach cancer. Nothing to do with Tofu! A diet high in fruit and vegetables lowers the risk of cancers.

www.cancer.org/cancer/stomach-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html

"They are only singled out for criticism when they tell others how much more ethical they are"

People ask why I'm veggie. I don't like meat but if I said "for ethical reasons" I would just be answering the question put to me. Why do people ask?

User, I'm not vegetarian but I've witnessed, on many occasions, people offering their unsolicited views on another person's vegetarianism and argue why it's nonsense. Similarly, I've seen people ask someone why they are vegetarian, the vegetarian replies with reasons, and then the non-veggies goes into their tiresome tirade.

A lot of people are total bores and weirdos when it comes to other people's dietary choices. Yet it's usually the vegetarians or vegans that are called 'preachy'.

I have a plant based diet but don't consider myself vegan. Oreos, crisps, french fries, doritos, breakfast cereal, coke, ....are vegan, but I don't eat them.

Being vegan is not a synonym of being healthy.