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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think it's a bit late of the school to stop DS going on his residential trip now!

329 replies

EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 15:34

DS1 is in year 6, has just been diagnosed as having autism and is finding the sats practice very stressful, as a result he refused to go into class this morning and instead sat outside waving a stick around.
The deputy called and said they were going to have to review whether he goes on the residential trip or not and probably wouldn't be able to.
AIBU to think that it's a bit late, the trip is straight after sats, DS is excited (which is rare) we have forked out nearly £200 for it and although the diagnosis was recent DS has been in the school for coming up 4 years, they should know him by now and be able to accommodate his needs.

OP posts:
befuddledgardener · 21/04/2017 22:03

What should have the first member of staff have done differently? What's does she usually do?

It is concerning that so many members of staff are needed when things go differently to the norm. In this light, what is the plan to cope with surprises or unusual things while away? What sort of activities is he due to partake in? The school of course will need to consider the level of risk involved and the likelihood of the worst happening.

Now the SATS stress has been removed, he can demonstrate how well he can follow instructions (with the right management).

All children need positive boundaries and natural consequences regardless of SEN.

befuddledgardener · 21/04/2017 22:12

i wonder if you are minimising his present behaviour. Previously the school thought they could manage your sons behaviour on the trip but now they are concerned that it might be too difficult. I'm sure there will be a reason for this. So what's different? I think you need to ask the school this question. SATS stress does intensify closer to the exam and so it's likely that his behaviour has also intensified.

I would insist on cash back if DS doesn't attend by the way

Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:18

Normally she wouldn't ask 'Whats wrong' because when he is anxious he can't answer that question but because she was in a rush she kept saying, 'come on, what's wrong, let's get this sorted and get in' etc.

I really can see both sides of the argument and Im not saying that it wasn't concerning. Just that the school have handled it very poorly. I will have a meeting and unless both the school and myself feel confident by the end of the meeting he won't go on the trip. I am prepared for that but I know it didn't need to come to this. They have successfully taken him to the beach several times, to things like the theatre (which he finds much harder to cope with than outside things) they have taken him on very long day trips when coaches have got lost/ massive traffic jams/ food has been different. I have every confidence in the year 6 staff.

So in summary, I feel that DS deserves this trip and his needs can be accommodated, however if the school don't feel they can I won't take the risk and push for him to go. So I will make the decision with the relevant members of staff, the staff that are actually going. I will be clear about his needs, honest about the issues. Not much more I can do.

If he can't go would it be unreasonable to take him out of school for that Friday and Monday rather than expect him to go into a different class?

OP posts:
Ceto · 21/04/2017 22:18

Only if staff are available and the school can provide them without disadvantaging or endangering others

Every school of any size has access to supply staff, whether through an agency or people they have on their books. They have to find extras to cover illness, invigilation etc, and it really is not at all unusual to have one or more pupils on any school trip needing extra help or supervision.

GreatWhites · 21/04/2017 22:24

If he can't go would it be unreasonable to take him out of school for that Friday and Monday rather than expect him to go into a different class?

As a teacher I say go for it the official pedantic answer is probably different.

Every school of any size has access to supply staff, whether through an agency or people they have on their books.

Eh?
There is a crucial shortage of supply teachers. It is hard enough to get class cover. It is nigh on impossible to get supply TAs, never mind trying to get one to go on a residential.

Bestthingever · 21/04/2017 22:26

I think the school have handled this badly. Not going on this trip at this stage is going to feel and look like a punishment to your ds. That's crap. Is it possible you could present it to your ds that it's YOUR decision that he not go because you're not happy with the school?

GreatWhites · 21/04/2017 22:27

Normally she wouldn't ask 'Whats wrong' because when he is anxious he can't answer that question but because she was in a rush she kept saying, 'come on, what's wrong, let's get this sorted and get in' etc.

That would really worry me in the context of typical residential activities or in the context of stomping down to the boys' room at 11.30!

Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:32

Ceto

I would love that to be the case but I don't expect the school to be able to magic up the funds for a supply teacher/t.a and it would also not be that simple to find.

I do hope they ask existing staff if anyone extra is happy to go and they may have already asked. I have offered to go on trips in schools I have worked in before and have sometimes been needed sometimes not. I don't expect anyone extra to have to go though and know that most will have committments to their families over a weekend but feel a no harm asking approach is okay. As long as the school don't but pressure on them.

I know that school budgets are all but non existent at the moment. My own role will only be funded for another year unless we get further funding. So I really don't expect 1:1 provision for the whole trip. I am more resigned to him not going. Bitterly disappointed for him if he doesn't go. He has worked so hard to get to a place where he feels ready to go.

OP posts:
Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:35

GreatWhites, it's not unusual for children with additional needs to struggle to vocalise their worries, doesn't mean they should miss out on things. She simply needed to rephrase and be firmer 'I can see you are upset but it is not safe here so we are going in now' then steer him towards the door by pointing out something in that direction.

OP posts:
GreatWhites · 21/04/2017 22:41

There are times when distraction is just not appropriate though. That's the point. It's not a reliable strategy.

befuddledgardener · 21/04/2017 22:41

When is the trip?

Now the SATS pressure is off, he should find entering school easier. Maybe a few weeks of following routines will be enough to show he's calmed down a bit

befuddledgardener · 21/04/2017 22:43

Have you reminded the TA about how to phrase things? She probably has a lot to remember and you can do it politely.

Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:48

Trip is just after Sats.

Great Whites it is pretty reliable when used consistently and normally the t.a just has to start with a question unrelated to the task in hand. I accept it is not always the right tactic so if they can't handle him I will have to plan our own weekend.

I do expect them to accept they have let him down though and acknowledge they have failed to meet his needs.

OP posts:
Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:51

This is a new T.A so was only told just before the Easter Holidays, she is really easy to chat to and DS really likes her. Happy to remind her but don't want to tell her how to do her job/don't want to seem rude. She is just under a huge amount of pressure, they have a very high level of children not coping with Sats and she is stretched thin. I can see how it happened, I don't blame her but I can also see it's because of those pressures on both staff and pupils that this happened and I truly believe it won't happen post Sats.

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 21/04/2017 22:52

If this is a outward bound kind of residential I can see big problems. You are being quite specific about what kind of language staff should use. A person trained to work at one of these centres won't be so specific with their language. I can't see how this will work unless a person can go just to focus on your child. Who would fund this?

GreatWhites · 21/04/2017 22:54

I do expect them to accept they have let him down though and acknowledge they have failed to meet his needs.

Why? Will that make anyone happy?

Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:57

If it means they review the way the address additional needs on school trips and children further down the school can either go with their needs accommodated or know they can't go with a reasonable time and without false hope then yes it would make me happy for them to realise theu haven't handled it in a professional manner.

OP posts:
Original poster
EnglishRose1320 · 21/04/2017 22:59

Wolifefan- my db works in a very similar centre and they have loads of training with regards to how to deal with children with additional needs. Also it doesn't take more than a minute for the group leader from the school to give a heads up- on trips where I have not been a 1:1 but some children needed an eye kept on them it has been possible to convey to say the climbing instructor that little Johnny won't look like he's listening but he is or such like.

OP posts:
GreatWhites · 21/04/2017 23:07

As I'm sure you know, if you are a TA, 'needs' is far too vague.

You are being so specific about how your son must be spoken to. It would not be feasible to ensure that he will not be asked the question 'what's wrong?' during a safety briefing, during a night-walk, canoeing etc. It is unsafe to use distraction in those circumstances.

Saying 'he looks like he isn't listening but he is' is totally different. Saying 'you'll need to make sure he goes last or first' is totally different.

They haven't 'failed to meet his needs'. It is not possible to meet such a specific need in the circumstances.

befuddledgardener · 21/04/2017 23:16

I think it would be very helpful to run through any handy hints with the TA (or ask the senco to run through stuff with the TA). No it's not rude to do that. It's about sharing your knowledge about what you know works. Helping staff have the right tools to manage your son.

My friend was in a similar situation and she found that the psychologist had a huge wealth of ideas/tactics

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 21/04/2017 23:22

Realistically it would probably have to be two extra staff, not one, as if he becomes anxious and moves away or doesn't want to leave the coach or isn't coping with the sleeping facilities two adults would need to be able to stay with him.

It is possible to risk assess and plan for it but it may be that it's too short notice at this point for a child whose anxiety is escalated, who is finding it hard even in the familiar structure of school where the building, grounds and staffing levels are always safe and prepared to help him, and where the planned activities on the residential may mean it could become unsafe. I do agree and sympathise it's very hard for him and for you that they've said this now when he's prepared and keen to go, particularly as this escalation in anxiety isn't his fault and it isn't just 'poor behaviour', you're being very reasonable. And yes if it comes to it I would pull him out of school those two extra days and do something fun rather than mess up his routine and rub it in that he's been left behind.

sailorcherries · 21/04/2017 23:38

So the one teacher you are happy and confident about was rushed, used the wrong turn of phrase and it escalated?

Why do you think that they will have any more time in a group putward bounds setting to communicate with your DS in the way you feel is appropriate?
Surely spending time with him and distracting him becomes a disadvantage to the rest of the children?

Inclusion is beginning to crack because it highlights how the majority of other children are now missing out due to the needs of others that cannot be met in mainstream schools, due to funding and resources.

The school have not let him down. At every previous point they genuinely believed they could cope however now, in your own words, he is not coping and the school cannot reasonably agree to take him under such circumstances. They would let him, and everyone else, down if they kept silent and something did happen during the trip.

As for finding extra staff it isn't that simple. Teachers and t.a's volunteer, they cannot be forced to go and many cannot attend because of their own commitments. Many do not want to because of the extra stress. Some don't want to because their pay is affected.
If extra do volunteer the school then need to find extra supply staff to cover classes and teachers then have to prepare the work and resources for supply staff.

littleoldladywho · 22/04/2017 00:55

I had totally missed that it was an outward bound course. Apologies.
No, not safe for him to go unless he has 1-1 support either provided by the school or the centre. Absolutely no way. Not a chance. I volunteer with kids with additional needs in these settings and we have a 1-1 volunteer for every single child in addition to the instructor. There are just too many variables and the risk is too high for both your ds and any other child that may get into difficulties while the instructor or teacher is having to deal with your ds.
He can absolutely go (and should be given the chance to) but there is no way on this sweet earth he should be doing these types of activities without 1-1 support. For everyone's safety.
What on earth is your dbro thinking? I wouldn't be happy if his organization was taking kids with additional needs as part of a regular group with no additional volunteers - especially knowing there are times on ordinary school days that his behaviour is unpredictable. No way.
We reduce volunteer levels to 1-2 in some instances where the activity is of a lower risk level and the kids are known to the group. We run 18 different sports and mountain activities and are extremely well versed in keeping kids with additional needs safe. I wouldn't touch that trip with a barge pole without additional 1-1 being put in place.
Sorry for my vehemence.

BlackeyedSusan · 22/04/2017 00:59

they only needed so many people because they failed to follow the recommended method of dealing with the problem. (distraction technique)

Ceto · 22/04/2017 01:27

Schools obviously don't send whole classes home because they have such a massive problem finding cover, and they also find people to do things like invigilating. The simple fact is that complying with the Equality Act is not an option, and it's not for OP or indeed us to find solutions.