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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want fact not a rose-tinted view of the NHS under Labour?

120 replies

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 12:36

Can we just be clear that privatisation of the NHS was started under Blair? Virgin started providing NHS services in 2006.

This does not detract from the much needed debate around priorities, staffing issues, resources, ageing demographics, postcode lottery etc. Can we please just have the discussion without the hypocrisy? Why Labour should stop crying privitisation.

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iseenodust · 21/04/2017 12:40

Happy to agree this was also a big fat lie.

To want fact not a rose-tinted view of the NHS under Labour?
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TheNaze73 · 21/04/2017 13:08

Well said. Some people's, deluded views stagger me.

Whosthemummynow · 21/04/2017 13:35

I like to think alot of posters are too young to truly remember values labour.... And most just massively ignorant 🙈

clairethewitch70 · 21/04/2017 13:36

Labour runs the Welsh Assembly and the NHS is a shambles in Wales, under Labour.

DavidBowieMime · 21/04/2017 13:38

I agree. Our hospitals locally were a terrible failing mess under Labour, and are now improving. But then so were so many things Sad I see improvements now - that may be down to Tories or not - but its makes me cross that the left wing as has oft been said have their hands on all organs of state and even within the NHS there is a hard core left group who dont fight for whats actually best but against anything that isnt Labour. Brain washed.

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 13:40

Oh joy party politics.

You sound like a tory voter who has no real solutions to offer and so spends their time yelling about the other guy being bad too.

I wish we could get rid of the parties altogether at the moment. Will no one think of the good of the country, not their own power / pockets?

missyB1 · 21/04/2017 13:46

Ok I worked in the NHS from 1988 - 2015 so i saw a few Governments come and go in that time. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt the Labour Government invested most in the NHS, and both front line staff and patients could feel the benefit of that investment. Labour brought in the cancer targets but importantly they also provided the money upfront to fund it, in the daycase diagnostic unit I was in we saw waiting times drop from 6 months to 2 weeks for urgents, and 6 weeks for routines. Yes that required a lot of hard work too not just money, but staff were happy to put in the extra hard work because we felt proud of how our service was improving.There was a sense of optimism and excitement that the NHS was on the up, we felt the Government was behind us and encouraging us.

This Government? well they lied when they promised to protect front line services (whilst cutting budgets), they slag off NHS staff constantly, yes those lazy greedy selfish Doctors who dont work weekends????!!! Theresa May has backed Jeremy Hunt who caused the Junior Doctors strike. And waiting lists have soared, A&E is in crisis, and there are frequently no hospital beds for urgent admissions. I think the facts speak for themselves really.

blaeberry · 21/04/2017 13:47

I don't get this 'privatisation' thing. GP practices have always been private businesses right from the start of the NHS.

blaeberry · 21/04/2017 13:54

missy you are right about labour giving the money upfront, unfortunately the NHS is now having to repay that debt. The NHS budget has not been cut but increases in demand, drug costs and repaying the debt is the problem.

Devorak · 21/04/2017 13:59

Where's the "big fat lie" on the bus?

The problem the NHS is facing now isn't privatisation, its the breaking up of it into smaller parts meaning it has none of the benefits of being an enourmous organisation. No economies of scale, no collective bargaining power, instead, thousands of administrators, working to rule and not creating an efficient system.

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 14:03

Nope not yelling, I said we need the discussion about the current state of the NHS and where it's headed. Just saying can we have facts not random finger pointing. I worked in the NHS for 10 years and think realistic solutions are few and far between. With ageing population, new technologies/drugs that are effective but cost a fortune and no-one willing to say 'what are you going to ditch if we want the new stuff?' . I think the postcode lottery is the worst aspect.

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iseenodust · 21/04/2017 14:17

Devorak "but the Treasury gross figure is slightly more than £350m of which we get back roughly half" Jan 2017 Dominic Cummings who came up with the campaign so the implication that you can do a straight diversion was garbage. You need to also decide all the UK recipients of funds/grants totalling £175m etc are no longer deserving causes.

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Devorak · 21/04/2017 14:19

I'll ask again as I think you think you answered. Where was the lie on the bus?

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 14:22

Fair enough. Cutting taxes and attacking the whole concept of communal public spaces, infrastructure and services is hardly going to help, and I have never seen tories do anything else.

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 14:29

"We send the EU £350m a week let's fund our NHS instead" as there is no full stop, no capital letter L and no other service mentioned (eg education), a reader would take it to mean a full £350m headed for the NHS.

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missyB1 · 21/04/2017 14:31

blaeberry I'm afraid in real terms the NHS budget has been cut, and frontline services have been affected by underfunding, and certainly not "protected" as promised. Yes there will always be increased demand that's why funding has to keep up! We can afford it we are not a third world Country.

Are you saying Labour were wrong to properly fund and improve our NHS? Do you resent the fact they prioritised healthcare and spent that money on it?

random79 · 21/04/2017 14:33

Devorak - the lie on the bus was "We send the EU £350 million per week". Obviously.

  1. It's a lie, because the actual figure of "sent" money includes the rebate, which is deducted at source
  2. It's misleading because it implies that the money is sent with no return. The "leaves the UK and doesn't directly return" figure is nearer £150m
  3. It's additionally misleading, because the implied assumption is that all of that money would necessarily be available and that leaving the EU would have zero impact on our financial position, which most economists believe will simply get worse.

Whatever your view on 3), I think 1) is unarguable, and 2) not far off.

Whether or not it would ever end up on the NHS, I think most of the people standing in front of the bus knew it wouldn't. They all knew the likelihood of it happening was near nil yet felt that misleading the electorate was a good thing to do.

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 14:42

Here's some basic figures on public borrowing I just googled: from a chap who claims to be both an academic and practising private tax expert. www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/
Labour borrows less than Tories when they've been in office apparently. And labour does at least try (I'm not a Blair fan, think too much went into private hands in his time) to build some infrastructure and redistribute wealth lower down the chain. So, although the NHS is facing the problems you mention, the balance of probabilities seems to be in favour of Labour on past evidence. Past behaviour is no guarantee of future performance, blah blah etc etc.

This GE has been called in such a short time frame with outright lies beforehand: it'll be a wonder if anyone can get their fully-costed act together ready for it.

Werkzallhourz · 21/04/2017 14:54

The big whammy for the NHS under Labour was PFI.

PFI was never designed for services that fell under public liability year on year. It was for commercial enterprises such as the Channel Tunnel, where the cost of the ensuing debt load would not need to be met by public expenditure and, instead, would be met in this case by private ticket sales.

PFI has left my local hospital with a total £350 million debt load for a £70 million renovation and build. The cost of meeting this liability year on year is crippling. Not only that but any related costs under the agreement are extortionate.

One PFI hospital in London was quoted £16,000 for a job to widen a doorway by two inches to make it disabled accessible, for example.

NHS PFI deals were an absolute scandal and also, I would argue, constituted the privatisation of state NHS assets. Those deals desperately need to be renegotiated, but we just do not have MPs of the calibre to tackle the issue head on.

Werkzallhourz · 21/04/2017 15:43

flowerderanger I read that blog piece and just sighed. You cannot take anything meaningful about public spend and borrowing from that kind of set of statistics.

I'll give you an example. Between 2001 and 2008, British tax receipts practically doubled from roughly £350bn to £630bn (receipts from stamp duty alone increased by 300%). This was largely the cause of the cheap credit boom; cheap money entered the economy and the ensuing fake boom filtered into tax receipts.

True Keynesianism would have meant Labour would have banked this windfall for the inevitable recession that would follow. Public expenditure was just under £350bn in 2001 (there was even a surplus of £4bn in 2001) but they didn't. They spent it, and more. By 2006, Labour were borrowing roughly £46bn a year despite the fact that receipts had doubled by that point.

This is a bit like winning £1 million on the lottery and buying a £1.5million pound house. Yes, it looks great and everyone goes wow! But you've still left yourself with a £500,000 mortgage you cannot service.

So that blogger chap is taking those years when Labour borrowed on inflated receipts and going "look, Labour only borrowed roughly £200bn during this time when the Tories borrowed far more during the early 80s".

What he doesn't recognise is that no party in power in the early noughties should have been borrowing a damn bean, regardless of whether they were Labour or Tory. And, of course, the Tories were borrowing during the 80s; any party would have been with public liabilities and tax receipt hangover from the 70s as they were (I notice he doesn't mention the 70s oil shock either).

Again, there are other issues he doesn't recognise. The only reason why Labour's borrowing was restrained between 1997 and 2001 was because they agreed to stick to Tory spending plans in their first term. This pledge was in the 1997 manifesto, and that is what led to the £4bn surplus in 2001 (they got round this pledge through PFI, but that's another story). The entire 80s period under the Tories was structured around recovering British finances after the 70s and getting us to the stable point of having a small surplus at the beginning of the noughties.

I have to say that I am nonpartisan these days in this matter, though it did cause me to leave the Labour party and Labour activism in the mid noughties because it was so obvious when the cheap credit boom collapsed, Britain would have liabilities of up to £300bn a year that it could not fund out of tax receipts. As it was, the shortfall was around £200bn (about twice the annual NHS budget at the time) , and, of course, that's when we got the coalition government, so that borrowing requirement than falls under Tory years.

But that £200bn annual deficit would never have occurred if Labour had not spent above inflated receipts from 2001 to 2008.

Werkzallhourz · 21/04/2017 15:45

Sorry, that should be "This was largely the result of the cheap credit boom."

blaeberry · 21/04/2017 16:15

missy labour didn't properly fund the NHS, if they had the NHS wouldn't be having to use its current income to pay the debt and it would be in a much better shape now.

Devorak · 21/04/2017 17:04

iseenodust

A missing (debatable) full stop sucked you and many other posters in? Doesn't that support the notion of general IQ tests before eligibility to vote?

blaeberry · 21/04/2017 17:23

The thing about that Brexit bus though is it was not the government or a political party making a promise so it carried no weight whatsoever. The remain side were the same - they couldn't make any commitments either. We were voting remain or leave the EU that was all, there was no added detail on the referendum. The rest was just hype, bluster and supposition.

missyB1 · 21/04/2017 17:30

blaeberry you seem to not understand that funding the NHS is an ongoing thing! The money has to keep going up under every Government otherwise the NHS cannot keep up with demand. It's all about priorities, what as a first world Country do we want to spend public money on? This Government decided to blame the public services for the disaster caused by the financial institutions, and penalised our public services with austerity measures.
I state yet again that under the Labour Government healthcare moved forward, under this Government it has slid disastrously backwards. To the extent that the Red Cross called it "a humanitarian crisis". How long do the Tories think they can keep blaming everyone else for that?