Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want fact not a rose-tinted view of the NHS under Labour?

120 replies

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 12:36

Can we just be clear that privatisation of the NHS was started under Blair? Virgin started providing NHS services in 2006.

This does not detract from the much needed debate around priorities, staffing issues, resources, ageing demographics, postcode lottery etc. Can we please just have the discussion without the hypocrisy? Why Labour should stop crying privitisation.

OP posts:
blaeberry · 21/04/2017 17:54

No missy you are the one who doesn't seem to understand that funding and debt is an ongoing thing. Labour didn't pay for everything they put in the NHS they simply took out a loan against future NHS funding. Now that loan is being paid off at crippling rates. What are you proposing? That the Tories repeat this mistake and saddle the NHS with further debt including going into more debt to pay the interest on the debt Labour created? At some point it still needs paying!

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 18:28

That's interesting werkz. Seems to leave us back to arguing about where exactly Labour spent the money, whether it was useful and what they would do now. We all know the 'new labour' years had faults. Trouble is Tory tax cuts for the rich and the continued destruction of infrastructure has got us into worse jams.

Werkzallhourz · 21/04/2017 18:40

Missy, this statement this Government decided to blame the public services for the disaster caused by the financial institutions, and penalised our public services with austerity measures is not accurate. In fact, it is a very skewed perspective.

Government did not "blame" public services for the financial disaster caused by financial institutions. If New Labour had been restrained and Keynesian between 2001 and 2008, the impact of the financial disaster upon British public finances would be been very small indeed.

We are in a period of austerity because British tax receipts fall significantly short of British public spending liabilities: roughly 50 percent of those liabilities were incurred by New Labour between 2001 and 2008 when they doubled public spending over a period of seven years. Gordon Brown felt he could get away with this because he believed we were in a "new economic paradigm" where GDP and tax receipts would constantly rise. Anyone who knows anything about history and economics knows that as soon as someone says "new economic paradigm", we are in a bubble of some sort that will eventually burst.

When that bubble burst with the financial crisis, British tax receipts collapsed by £200bn to around £450bn-ish (we were borrowing around £50bn YOY anyway). Yet we still had roughly a £700bn public expenditure bill every year (roughly 45% of GDP, which is another issue in the pot). This gave us a deficit of around £200bn to £250bn in the aftermath of the crisis when tax receipts simply could not match spend.

That deficit was not because the government gave the banks taxpayer's money to bail themselves out. It is not a question of the NHS having to suffer budget cuts because the government gave that money to the banks. That is a huge misunderstanding of the nature of the bank bailouts under the chancellorship of Alastair Darling.

That deficit was what the government needed to tackle every year, either by raising taxes, reducing spend, borrowing, requesting an expansion of the money supply (which is now a Bank of England responsibility) or a medley of all four. This is a reality, not make-believe.

As I said on another thread, what many people do not realise is that Corbyn's first published economic policy was based upon Osbourne either wiping out the deficit through austerity or reducing this deficit to a mere £50bn a year. That is why Labour has been so weird about the issue with Harman telling Labour MPs not to vote against austerity and Labour not particularly hammering austerity in campaign pitches. They know the problem needs to be sorted.

It's all about priorities, what as a first world Country do we want to spend public money on?

This again is a very complex question. To give you an idea of general spend, we are currently spending about £785bn a year.

  • Public pensions cost us £157bn.
  • The NHS costs us £143bn.
  • Education costs us £85bn.
  • Social security costs us £133bn.

This is a total of £518bn already, with £267bn left.

But we haven't yet paid for defence (£46bn), the police (£4bn), law courts, fire service or prisons (a total of £26bn), transport (£30bn), the interest on our debt (£49bn; yes, we pay over ten times in debt interest what we spend on the police every year).

Nor have we funded the cost of government itself (£15bn), or anything to do with waste services, forestry, fishing, pollution, environmental protection, housing development, community amenities, recreational services, broadcasting (£4.2bn, yes, we spend on broadcasting than we do the police) ... all those £2bn and £3bn here and there that make a total of up £118bn.

So where do you cut? What are the priorities? If you don't want to cut health, education, pensions, or social security, what option do you have? Really? If we get rid of the entire criminal justice system and the fire service, so no police, no prisons, no courts, no fire stations, we'll only save £30bn a year. Grin

We could cut all waste management, so no tips or rubbish collections or recycling anywhere in the country, and we would save £10bn a year.

None of this would sort out the underfunding of the NHS, and the country would be ... well ... a hellhole.

So lets look at raising taxes instead. After the crash, as I said above, the annual deficit was £200bn. The tax take at this point was around £550bn. To raise another £200bn in tax and have no austerity whatsoever would have required increasing the tax burden by over 30%.

Practically no-one in this country can afford their taxes to go up by 30%. It would crash the economy.

Hefzi · 21/04/2017 18:46

Werkz your posts on this thread are the most cogent of any I've ever seen on MN - I realise my approbation doesn't mean anything, of course: but please tell me that you're a politician or in a local council or something, and restore my hope!

Werkzallhourz · 21/04/2017 19:07

Flowering Seems to leave us back to arguing about where exactly Labour spent the money, whether it was useful and what they would do now.

The thing is that quite a lot of that money did need spending. Income distribution did need balancing to some extent.

But Labour did it all in such a bloody expensive way, usually for political reasons. Take income redistribution, for example. Labour tackled this through creating the tax credits system, which was a hugely expensive system to administrate. Why not just lower the basic rate of tax? Or increase the personal allowance with a corresponding rise in the higher rate to offset the gain for higher earners?

So you start looking for reasons why Labour went down that path. And you have to admit, well, the one thing the tax credit system did was create a lot of public sector jobs because you needed people to run the damn thing. And what did that do? Reduce the unemployment rate and, as public sector workers are statistically more likely to vote Labour, it supported a block of the Labour vote and delivered more members to public sector trade unions, which means increased subs.

Okay, I am being very cynical here Grin, but it is really hard to see many other reasons for the policy decision when there were far other cheaper ways to do it.

And again, you look at PFI hospitals. Did many hospitals need refurbs and new wings? Yes, they did. Did they need it at the expense to the tax payer of PFI deals. No, they didn't.

In fact, the cost of PFI deals has actually meant that some of those PFI hospitals have now had to, more or less, close. The hospital I mentioned up thread that was quoted £16K to widen a doorway? That hospital up until about fifteen years ago was a fully functional regional hospital with its own lab and maternity unit. Now it's for outpatient appointments only, and is pretty near to a total mothball. The local trust just cannot afford to run it, and they can't afford to run it because the cost of the PFI deal is too high.

mirime · 21/04/2017 19:13

clarethewitch that's not completely true, we do worse on some things and better on others than England. The Welsh Government has also cut social care less than England.

DJBaggySmalls · 21/04/2017 19:17

Did you not know about the Thatcher years? She privatized the cleaning and services.

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1999920

''The legacy of health policy from the 1980s is the NHS internal market by which one bit of the NHS buys services from another. This became in the 1980s standard practice in all large private and public sector organisations, not just the NHS. It was seen as radical in its time but is now no more likely to be abolished than penicillin.''

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 19:49

Yeah the increase in public sector jobs was often to run the systems created - eg the targeting and statistics boom and to deal with the effects of internal markets and separated funding pots. I have a passing interest in John Seddon and the Vanguard method which talked about some of that. A lot of money went on unelected quangos which were a bit vague about purpose too. Relatively little seemed to go where it was needed.

Can't trust any of these professional politicians can we.

mirime · 21/04/2017 19:54

DJBaggy and that's why when the charity I work for arranges for carers to attend meetings to give their view on services they're not given a cup of tea or coffee. Carers, who have given up their time for free.

It's ridiculous.

NotDavidTennant · 21/04/2017 20:04

PFI has been a terrible disaster for public finances, but the Conservatives have continued it under the unimaginative rebranding of PF2.

Neither of the two main parties have the moral highground on this.

NotDavidTennant · 21/04/2017 20:14

Okay, I am being very cynical here grin, but it is really hard to see many other reasons for the policy decision when there were far other cheaper ways to do it.

IIRC Labour made a promise to cut child poverty levels and the easiest way for them to achieve this was to introduce a benefit that they could specifically target at low income families in order to push them above the statistical poverty level. An across the board tax cut would have been cheaper and easier to administer, but would have been much less effective at gaming meeting the target that they'd publicly set themselves.

MetalMidget · 21/04/2017 20:14

Devorak - it wasn't just the bus.

Obviously there's the argument to be made (that a lot of Remainers did make) that the figure was fake, flawed, and the Leave campaign had no power to make that promise. But a lot of people didn't realise that politicians can flat out lie.

www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/05/14/97905329_BRISTOL_ENGLAND_-_MAY_14__Conservative_MP_Boris_Johnson_speaks_as_he_visits_Bristol_on_May-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqKjggCdpvXjoraOzAlyzu1MOSRhbr0ZABex7Vh5dC_YU.jpg

StillDrivingMeBonkers · 21/04/2017 20:19

"We send the EU £350m a week let's fund our NHS instead" as there is no full stop, no capital letter L and no other service mentioned (eg education), a reader would take it to mean a full £350m headed for the NHS.

I think you need to understand that in/out , Brexit/remain were not political parties, no one spoke for the government, they were lobby groups. If you are stupid enough to assume Johnson, Corbyn and Farage on the same platform was somehow a bone fide promise then I think some form of test should be introduced to assess mental capacity before being allowed near a ballot paper

Ruby2202 · 21/04/2017 20:48

Werk- thank you so much for your post. You've made a complex situation really easy to understand and answered many questions. So
Much of what you've written I didn't realise. However, after thinking I knew who I would vote for in the GE I am now once again unsure.

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 20:51

Devorak You are the one who says there is/was no lie....so whose IQ is open to question? I have no idea what my IQ is but I didn't believe the lie then, wasn't sucked in and happy to confess voted Remain.

OP posts:
iseenodust · 21/04/2017 21:04

Werk your posts are very informative. Thank you for shedding more light on a complex area.

Bonkers *if you are stupid enough to think...was a bona fide promise..." overlooks the fact I said up top "it was a big fat lie". I repeat I wasn't sucked in at the time. Save your insults.

OP posts:
reawakeningambition · 21/04/2017 21:19

Why did I not know this? Why are we not told this? Why does my newspaper not explain this to me?

"* Public pensions cost us £157bn.

  • The NHS costs us £143bn.
  • Education costs us £85bn.
  • Social security costs us £133bn.

This is a total of £518bn already, with £267bn left.

But we haven't yet paid for defence (£46bn), the police (£4bn), law courts, fire service or prisons (a total of £26bn), transport (£30bn), the interest on our debt (£49bn; yes, we pay over ten times in debt interest what we spend on the police every year).

Nor have we funded the cost of government itself (£15bn), or anything to do with waste services, forestry, fishing, pollution, environmental protection, housing development, community amenities, recreational services, broadcasting (£4.2bn, yes, we spend on broadcasting than we do the police) ... all those £2bn and £3bn here and there that make a total of up £118bn."

reawakeningambition · 21/04/2017 21:20

So Werk can we do something about public sector pensions ? Because they are the biggest cost.

Itisnoteasybeingdifferent · 21/04/2017 21:28

MissyB,
You need to understand the difference between spending and investing. Investing is where you get back more than you put in.
Labour spent more, but got back less because they simply threw borrowed money at the NHS.

They also forced hospitals to use off balance sheet financing, PFI credits to make it look like they were doing something spectacular. In reality they took out a mortgage on the NHS infrastructure leaving the next generation to pay back the cash.

TheColdDoesBotherMeAnyway · 21/04/2017 21:32

Claire I work for the NHS in Wales and at the moment I thank my lucky stars I live on this side of the border...for a start junior doctors here are not demonised; public health is still being seen as a priority - my equivalents in England have had their numbers drastically reduced whilst still being expected to provide the same level of service; and I can see a GP fairly easily here which I don't believe is the case in many areas of England. It's not perfect but as a staff member and service user I genuinely believe things are better in Wales.

iseenodust · 21/04/2017 22:01

The NHS in England seems hugely variable. I live outside the SE. We can see a GP without too much hassle and have a great minor injuries unit in the nearest town. We have an NHS dentist. There is lots of good work in the community eg falls prevention, stroke rehab. However, there is barely a CAMHS at all and care for the elderly in hospital IME is dire.

Where that puts us against Wales, Scotland or indeed the SE I wouldn't know. This is why I would like facts. To vote from a position of being informed not just parochial anecdote.

OP posts:
badabing36 · 21/04/2017 22:09

Dp works in the NHS. He constantly has to think of ways to save money. They are on a skeleton staff, as anyone who left could not be replaced. Until recently their hospital was one of the few in the country still in the black, further cuts mean that that's not true anymore. Waiting list targets have been extended throughout the hospital. They are now firing people in his department, 'no front line jobs lost' was a lie.

badabing36 · 21/04/2017 22:09

Nhs England to clarify.

pennypickle · 21/04/2017 22:10

Can someone tell me how Labour would increase finances into the NHS? Also how would the Tories increase finances into the NHS?

The NHS is certainly in need of some cash

FloweringDeranger · 21/04/2017 22:30

reawakeningambition just to clarify that pension figure is for all state pensions, not just public sector. IFS has a nice little article about them at www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7461

Swipe left for the next trending thread