AIBU to not understand why "normal" people vote Tory?

[olddogsnewtricks]

OK, so I'll probably get flamed for this but am genuinely interested! All the people I know who vote Tory are pretty well off so use private schools and healthcare. As a family we need the NHS and we need a good education system - and I can't see them getting any better under the Tories. Are these just not priorities for Tory voters or do they really believe they will improve even with a Conservative government?

I vote Tory and think that Theresa May is fantastic. Finally a Prime Minister with good values, life experience and common sense. As they say, fortune favours the bold and I'm hoping that she will remain in power, navigate our way through brexit and finally put a stop to the hideous Nicola Sturgeon!

I actually don't think that Conservatives will fully privatise the NHS in the short term so the threat of this doesn't put me off voting Tory. As for education, I think that grammar schools are a great thing. Yes middle class parents play the system but they ultimately give bright children from all social backgrounds the opportunity to advance with the correct parental backing.

We are never going to live in an equal society. Some children will go to schools that are in special measures, others will go to outstanding state schools. Some will go to mediocre private schools, some will go to the best private schools in the country. Some kids will do well whatever their circumstances, some won't. That's life people!!

The only thing I suggest Labour voters do is to have a long hard think about where they are going to get the money for all their crazy economic plans! In the unlikely event Corbyn gets in, he'll make things worse for everybody.

Why should he work so hard and have to pay 40% tax to keep an army of workshy entitled scroungers at home watching Sky and smoking!!

Have you ever checked out the actual figures in relation to this? Just wondering as people seem shocked when they realize quite how little is actually spent on unemployment benefits.

visual.ons.gov.uk/welfare-spending/

Lets assume that half of current JSA claimants are these feckless workshy scroungers that you speak of, though that is clearly overestimating as most people on JSA ren't on it more than a few months

3bn per year is spent on unemployment benefits. Half of that, 1.5bn. A complete drop in the ocean. So sorry to say your husbands raxes really are not going on supporting people like you claim. Maybe 0.01p per year or something.

In contrast, 10billion worth of benefits go unclaimed every year.

So many seem to think there is an 'army' of people living the high life on JSA (70 quid a week or so) while in reality, its not really like that.

And its always 'but we don't mean the genuine disabled, needy and elderly'. But those are the ones actually being hit by cuts that come in because of people thinking like you/your husband does about huge amounts going to the feckless when this is...rare and the benefits cap already stopped this in most cases (except for disabled people, who apparently you don't have an issue with supporting)

Sorry but how is it blind tribalism to point out the facts?

It's not, i pointed out facts that the tories upped the minimum wage and increased the the personal tax allowance it was met with.
The Tory increases were hardly mind blowing.

This is after the fact I mentioned that the introduction of Tax credits and being in charge under the mass easing of credit was under labour to be brushed of as :
At least labour took action. Unfortunately they were in the pocket of business so did this instead.

To then state that we would be playing the game of
trying to let labour take the credit of certain policies whilst also playing the not true socialism labour for the failures
to be met with
labour introduced the minimum wage
[laugh]

I'm not a "tribal labour voter". I've voted for at least 3 different parties in my lifetime.
The left is fractured, still tribal

You haven't really offered a credible alternative. As for the feeble argument against a living wage, it is just that. Feeble. Businesses want to keep their costs down with no thought to the human cost.

No, you haven't countered my argument what so ever, it is in no way feeble, I made it easy and only gave you two points. Give me the counter argument as to why my 2 points are feeble and not being played out already while you charge your iphone.

But Amaranthe many disadvantaged children don't have 'the correct parental backing' that's 80% of their disadvantage! And grammar schools only measure one very narrow definition of intelligence. How incredibly stifling at such a young age.

I'm in Scotland. I will never vote for the SNP. Labour is a disaster at the moment. Will have to weigh up which of Conservatives or Liberal Democrats are more likely to win in my constituency.

Under the tories they paint it out as the undeserving poor vs working people.

Undeserving poor + people on low wages Vs 'working people' is more like it. As those on low wages who need tax credits and housing benefit just to live are just as bad as those who have found themselves out of work, and the disabled. Recently anyway.

but they ultimately give bright children from all social backgrounds the opportunity to advance with the correct parental backing

Please define 'correct parental backing'. Or more importantly, 'incorrect parental backing'

@MaisyPops

Raising min wage is a labour policy.

No it's a site wide government issue to tackle the tax credits situation that labour introduced.

So far labour has intended to raise the minimum wage by iirc 50p more per hour than the tory's by 2020.

I'm in Scotland. I will never vote for the SNP.

SNP are in for the foreseeable future IMO I am afraid.

And Sturgeon will just keep doing vote after vote after vote until she gets the result she wants. She will get the result eventually as people will just get too sick to bother anymore and resign themselves to it even if they don't want to leave.

I am rather upset about the whole Scottish referendum thing, though being English I understand its totally up to the Scots what they do. just being in the North East I honestly feel more...connected...with Scotland than I do Westminster. We are actually floating the idea of moving to Scotland in the future..especially if Scotland do eventually chose to Leave the UK. Sturgeon has a one track mind, however she does seem to actually look after 'her people' at the same time. Something successive London based governments don't seem to have done for us (meaning the North East)

Equally more progrssive tax system where the top end pay more so the middle and lower earners pay less has been discussed by labour.

Being discussed is not acting on it, the bell curve comes into play, just ask Hollande how his socialist tax reform went down.

It's not a zero sum game, both ends of the spectrum need reform

That is unfortunate but there is only so much the Government can do to change that; there is no quick fix.The opportunities are there for hard working families who aspire for their children to do well.

It's funny too that Labour voters are very cross about the housing crisis but those living in social housing who bought their houses knowing they'd turn over a quick £ were by and large Labour voters.

The opportunities are there for hard working families who aspire for their children to do well

As above, please define 'hard working family'.

What happens if you work hard but your children have SEN, for example, and the TAs have gone because of budget cuts. How does being 'hard working', as opposed to not being 'hard working', overcome that particular issue?

It's funny too that Labour voters are very cross about the housing crisis but those living in social housing who bought their houses knowing they'd turn over a quick £ were by and large Labour voters.

Right to buy scheme is a fucking joke. And is still going on too. Absolutely ridiculous. yes its nice for people to be able to buy their houses but unless the ones sold are being replace,d which they aren't...then its just stupid.

And Sturgeon will just keep doing vote after vote after vote until she gets the result she wants. She will get the result eventually as people will just get too sick to bother anymore and resign themselves to it even if they don't want to leave.

I though they were only able to have 3 referendums on the issue?

I though they were only able to have 3 referendums on the issue?

Oh I didn't know this. So she will have her 3 then step down I assume. Once in a lifetime vote indeed

That is unfortunate but there is only so much the Government can do to change that; there is no quick fix.The opportunities are there for hard working families who aspire for their children to do well.

This is the type of comment I find baffling and chilling. It's so lacking in empathy. Not all children are lucky enough to be born to people who 'aspire for their children to do well.' What do you suggest happens to these children? Not everyone has nice or supportive parents or grandparents, do we just write them all off or blame them because of their feckless families? What about people who just cannot work so it doesn't matter how aspirational they may feel? I have an invisible illness albeit a serious and often very debilitating one. What happens to people like me when people have such awful attitudes that they believe everyone who needs state support is a workshy scrounger? In the past I've been to horrific and humiliating disability assessments and been denied benefits when I've felt so ill I wanted to die. Not everyone starts off on an equal playing field and a bit of kindness wouldn't go amiss. The Tories are very good at promoting the myth of the deserving and undeserving poor whilst simultaneously bleeding the country dry - how do you think a lot of them got so rich in the first place? It wasn't because they were inherently better or more hardworking, a lot of the very wealthy families in this country have fortunes derived from very murky business transactions in the past including slavery. If these are the people we aspire to have lead us I despair.

My husband and I run a very successful small business. We are exactly the type of people the Tories love and have benefitted hugely from their policies but we would never vote for them because we loathe the way they treat the utterly helpless and desperate.

No, you haven't countered my argument what so ever, it is in no way feeble, I made it easy and only gave you two points. Give me the counter argument as to why my 2 points are feeble and not being played out already while you charge your iphone

Ouch. What makes you think I have an iPhone and why is that relevant?

Your argument against the living wage was that:

If you want to introduce the living wage then you need to look at all external factors, inflation is one issue that needs to be addressed rationally, and amongst the other complications there is the relative cost of automation to wages, if you wasn't so obvious in your partisanship it might be worth the discussion, but hey ho....

I'm guessing you think that inflation will go up because of the living wage? Well given that we are seeing soaring housing costs, childcare costs and other living costs - it would suggest to me that inflation is already a problem and an actual living wage would help improve things. I would also suggest that employers are given tax breaks to encourage better wages. Failing that, better employee representation at board level in order for them to say themselves what they need.
What are the other factors you mention?
And why do we have a distinction between ages for the existing "living" (but it's really the minimum) wage?

The opportunities are there for hard working families who aspire for their children to do well

What about those children who do not come from aspirational families?

What about those children who have been effectively abandoned and are neglected?

I want every single child to have a good chance of making something for themselves in life. Regardless of their family circumstances. If they are written off because their families are not aspirational, then we do nothing to improve their chances.

We as a country are small and should be seeing the brightest and best children who will be our future scientists, engineers, doctors etc etc. I don't believe for one second that the coincidence of being born into an "aspirational" family makes that child better than one who is not.

That's why labours early years programme was fantastic. It was based on research which showed that the interventions needed to start very early in order to be effective. It doesn't matter that other children who weren't "poor" were also benefitting, as long as you help your target audience as well.

Now that has all been ripped up and we have the suppose holy grail of grammar schools being promised. Yet we know that by the age of 11, it is too late for those disadvantaged children. They have no chance of getting into grammar schools when it takes a shit load of tutoring - especially if they've not had a good start at primary school.

But those who support grammar schools are only really interested in either recreating their childhood (and I hardly doubt a "daughter of a vicar" was disadvantaged) or getting their little darling into a decent school.

Well I imagine that there are 3 reasons OP:

1. The Labour party at the current time is not an effective opposition, while their main priority is fighting amongst themselves I cannot take them seriously in relation to running a country.
2. No one is ever going to agree 100% with all the policies. I disagree with Tory education policy and some of the benefit cuts but I also disagree with some of what the Labour party says. Any party can only work with what they have.
3. They would rather have TM as prime minister than JC.

If they are written off because their families are not aspirational, then we do nothing to improve their chances.

I worked in a secondary school during the last Labour government. It really wasnt a 'holy grail' era for education, believe me.

Walking You see that list as achievements.....I don't. You forgot to add taking HRP off the parent claiming CB when the child hit 12; sending troops in battle with inadequate gear; taking away the 10p rate of income tax which affected those with lower incomes dispropertionately.

I can understand people with decent jobs, no health issues and kids in decent local schools voting tory, as in am I'm alright Jack way

but anyone who watches the channel 4 news or delves a bit deeper than their ordinary lives knows the tory party doesn't care about anyone not living a life as above

ordinary people voting tory is like the poorer parts of the USA voting for Trump who wants to dismantle Obamacare...or Wales voting for Brexit when they have been kept going with EU money

basically I think the majority of voters in the UK are easily led and a bit thick.

The Labour party at the current time is not an effective opposition, while their main priority is fighting amongst themselves I cannot take them seriously in relation to running a country

This is so true for many voters. And the real worry is that JC and his cronies just cannot see it. I do wonder if it is some sort of weird joke and that the Russians have planted a load of imposters around JC. Or the core team at the Labour Party have been replaced by aliens.

But I still don't understand anyone who makes a decision based on the individual potential prime minister. Ive recently been reading up on Clement Attlee - he was very much derided but actually turned out to do a good job.

I am also still waiting to hear concrete policies on what the Tories will do to help tackle the housing crisis (osbourne didn't help with his various financial props which haven't tackled the social housing issues or high prices), tackle education (why is it ok to cut core funding significantly while funding pet projects which are not evidence based) and the NHS (which is pretty efficient but keeps being meddled with by all politicians, making things worse as there's never a steady state).

...but more depressing than that is the fact their is no credible alternative just now, which is why May has called for a GE