I've taken on a narc and now I'm wavering. WWYD?

[needallthehelpicanget]

Basically, to cut the long story short, I've decided recently after suffering at the hands of possibly narc MIL, that I'm not putting up with her behaviour, so today is the second logger headed incident.

Recently, she has been complaining that she doesn't get to see GCs, it's the hols, we have relies visiting soon for a few weeks, and the DC are back at school next week etc. so I (selfishly) said do you fancy having the kids next week as I need a haircut and do a few things. She said yes.

Roll on today, I dropped them off at 10:00 am, stayed for 20 mins while we discussed what she was making them for lunch (I am happy with whatever she wants to do), how they have an appointment at 3:30 for their haircuts. I also mentioned that my elder child has brought a toy to play with while the younger,one has his nap after lunch. I can't remember if I had mentioned the time that I'd be back to collect DCs.

Anyway I go off, get my hair done, go home, get a few jobs done as there is no point me going to MILs any earlier as the younger child will be napping and I'd have to hang around being a nuisance while waiting for him to wake up (this has happened before).

So, at 3pm, when I get to MIL , she informs me that BIL has been and just left and taken DS1 swimming. I then say but you knew he had a haircut booked?
She says nothing. I ask to borrow her phone and try in vain to get hold of BIL who doesn't answer his phone. I am at this point, angry, because no one had rung me to ok the swimming trip (I would have been happy under planned circumstances), and that she'd let him go despite knowing that they'd had an appointment.
So I say to her calmly, in future, could you ring me before letting DS go or else I won't be sending them to hers.

I then take DS2 and leave. I didn't storm off but I was angry.

I then try to get hold of BIL again but he doesn't answer, as I thought there may be a chance that he could turn back or I could meet him to collect DS1. However, DS2 is giving me merry hell as he doesn't like having his hair cut and so I phone DH at work to try and get hold of his brother and try and get my elder son to the hairdressers. BIL doesn't call back until 4pm. This is after the embarrassment of turning up to a booked appointment without DS1 and the trauma of a haircut with snot and tears. I say please can you bring DS1 home in 10 mins. He says ok.

30 minutes later I send him a text saying DS1 has a swimming lesson at 5:30 please can u bring him home as I have to feed him and get him to swimming. I then phone MIL wondering if they'd turned up there and she informs me that they have not and she doesn't know where they are.

BIL eventually brings him home at 4:45pm, apologises half way down the drive. I call out after him, "next time , just ring me"

DH then comes home and gives me a right telling off for upsetting his mum over a haircut.
Then BIL texts DH saying sorry for taking DS1 swimming. I tell DH to text back that I really appreciate him taking DS1 and sorry it was a disaster.
He then comments that MIL is really upset, has been crying over the way I treated her.
Apparently the kids were only supposed to be there an hour.
So DH replies that I'd discussed lunch with her, he replied, lunch is not 5 hours, then DH had to defend me again by saying DS was left with toys to play with during DS's nap time, etc.

So this is the second time I have called her out on this type of behaviour and this is the second time she has started the waterworks.
What do I do? Do I cave and apologise. am I being petty as according to BIL and DH 'it's only a hair cut', or do I stand my ground against a woman who has downright bullied me for the last 14 years? My issue is not so much the haircut but lack of text/call to me which could have avoided the whole fiasco.

I feel that I've finally found the courage to quietly but firmly stand up to MIL but I am feeling a bit stupid. But it's her and BIL, who always panders to her that have blown it out of proportion?

Me and DH have had an argument over this, and we are so happy right now, and I don't want to spoil that, but at the same time i won't tolerate these hissy fits just because she can't accept she made a mistake.

Sorry pressed too soon.

... and you may need to possibly go to see her and spell out the situation re what happened today. Hear her out too.

What FlyingElbows said. Way too much over diagnosing of PD these days especially "narcs" and especially on here.

I'm sure there is a backstory and that communication with your MIL has become fraught because of this, from what you've written and on this occasion it sounds like crossed wires and that BIL was trying to do a nice thing. If she does have PD traits the best way to deal with her is to not get involved with the drama and maybe let your DH make arrangements for her to see the DC.

My dad has never been formally diagnosed with NPD but he very, very clearly has narc traits, which in themselves are far more complex than a simple 'not following instructions '. He only gets access to my children in my presence. He can manage being grandpa for an hour or so but it'd be a cold day in hell before I left them in his care and let them meet the "real" him.

It may be just me, but I'm really struggling to see what in the opening post suggests your MIL has Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

It sounds like a misunderstanding to me and a bit of an overreaction from you - missing a haircut really isn't the end of the world.

If you believe your MIL is somewhere on the clinical scale of narcissism then you might want to consider not leaving your children in her care without your/your husband's oversight.

Late MIL 2.0 had mental health issues including personality disorders. Leaving DS with her would have been setting her up to fail, and then kicking her when she did just that.

Took DH a while to come over to my side of the "children's needs first, adult wants second"side of the equation. He loved his mum, didn't want to hurt her and was leery of the fall out of crossing her. Also, she was all he had ever known as a mother, so her behaviours looked normal to him. But DS needed him to prioritise his child's needs over various adult wants. Which he did after a period of sometimes quite strong disagreement with me.

If you have children with a person whose parent has issues ofmpersonality, MH etc. this can be one of the unavoidable battles you have to take on and refuse to lose. Primarily for your kids' sake. But also everybody else's. Nobody wins when somebody is constantly set up to fail and it all pops off as a result.

I'm not in a position to say whether your MIL behaved unreasonably. It sounds like your conclusions about this are based partly on her past behaviour rather than on this one day. I have relatives who would have behaved just the same as your MIL did, but it would have been down to scattiness / poor planning rather than manipulation and malice.

I do agree with others who have pointed out that it was a mistake to enter into this situation without making the exact timings crystal clear. True, a sensible person would have got in touch with you at some point during the day to ask when you were coming for the kids, if she was in doubt, and would have checked with you before sending your DS1 off to swim. But it sounds like you know she does this sort of thing, so it would have been wise to tell her exactly when you were coming.

And if she is somewhat unreliable, then always allow an extra hour in case you arrive to discover the kids are just sitting down to lunch or starting a craft activity at the moment you'd planned to spirit them off. That's what I did with my lovely MIL, who wasn't good at quick goodbyes and always hoped to keep family near just a little longer.

After re-reading your OP, it appears to be your mil suffered from not understanding your time line of events. I suffer from this from Dd who believes she is super efficient & railroads me mentally. Sweeps in @ 90 mph whilst batting instructions in her wake, then sweeps out again leaving me in a WTAF happened.

If I were you I'd dial it back & make sure this is never repeated again. Check that your intentions are clear. Either written down or a text to keep referring to. My Dd realises she affects me in this manner, and I've had to stand my ground for her to at least change her dynamics.

Obviously this is just a snapshot of your relationship with your mil. You need to get smart whilst appearing all sweetness and light to all her audience.

The thing is that you will always be the one who is unreasonable.

She will argue to bizarreness and back that she is 'only this or that' and because she believes it everyone else (who is in her thrall) will too.

Sorry you have to live with this.

For me it was my DFather.
The problems started when I got married, ramped up when I had DS and pervaded our marriage and family life in the most inexplicable way for years.

I found no way out and no solution for managing it, tied myself in knots for years trying to keep DFather happy, could not make any peace for us (me, DH and DS) with that influence. Had no alternative to go NC. I'm very very sad about it because I have lost my mother, brother, sil and nephew as a consequence, possibly other relatives too, also lost property and had financial threats made against us. DS has lost extended family but I am relieved he is no longer tying himself in knots to make Gdad happy - which he was doing from around 4 years old - wondering aloud, testing scenarios, missing him then being ignored by him within moments of meeting up.

But life is now peaceful and comfortable in a way it simply could not be before. DS is settled and very happy and safe. DH is no longer anxious and on pins. I am finding my way without the dysfunctional overlaying structures to my world.

I had six months counselling as well as a lot of help from DH.

I am the equivalent to your DH. Your DH has a long path to travel if he is to 'get' it as he has most likely been trained all his life into his supporting role. It took me years to understand that I was the only route to peace. DFather had no interest in and nothing to gain from peace. He, I am certain, put a lot of effort into trying to destabilise my marriage, in fact he undermined it from the start and once he knew we were not having more children he increased the pressure on DH, he perhaps had no more use for DH. Wow that sounds vile. It is vile and unbelievable. Even now I am thinking could it really have been like that? Thing is it actually was.

Take care

I don't think that you are entirely innocent in this as you really should have agreed with her on what time you will pick the children up. It sounds as if she understood that you were leaving the children for a haircut which would be an hour whereas you assumed you could pick them up when you felt like it without discussing it first. I would be very annoyed about the fact they didn't ask before taking DD1 swimming though.
The situation itself doesn't make her a narc although I obviously don't know the backstory.

Did she actually really understand that she was looking after them from 10 am until their haircut at 3.30??? More than 5 hours?

You dont come across very well in this, I am afraid.

''What do I do? Do I cave and apologise. am I being petty as according to BIL and DH 'it's only a hair cut', or do I stand my ground against a woman who has downright bullied me for the last 14 years?''

Trouble is, although your description of the days events is quite detailed, it is still open to interpretation. Some posters will see it as MIL getting confused - some will say ''evil MIL''.

With out knowing what's been going of for the 14 years it's hard to give the opinion you seek OP.

My advice would be if the relationship between you and MIL is strained then keep it simple, light, and under tight control. Ie kids go there with you as pps have said. Yes there was a cock up with the MIL getting involved in child care on your late nights but you're sorting that soon and you can let that dog lie. Best to keep your opinion of your DHs mum to yourself from now on. Control the situation with your own actions.

The key here is in the overall relationship and pattern of events not just this event, its only implied in the OP I accept. Maybe it is just a misunderstanding........

If this is typical/a repeating pattern then it is NOT PETTY it is NOT a misunderstanding it is predictable shit.

If MIL has these narcissistic behaviours then loads of petty things/misunderstandings happen and YOU always look the unreasonable one - thats how it works - then it is NOT petty it is predictable shit.

If she has narcissistic traits then you have to realise despite what ever you say/agree/reason she will have her own overriding patterns of behaviours and needs/wants that will ABSOLUTELY override everything you have agreed - thats how it works - then it is NOT petty it is predictable shit.

OP you will know in your heart which it is.

It does sound a bit just like a misunderstanding at first but the swimming thing makes no sense. She thought you were coming back after your haircut but you didn't, she was annoyed. But i would never send someone else's child anywhere if i knew they had an appointment at 3.30, it might not be a big deal to miss it but that's really not her decision to make. Sounds like she sent him off as punishment for not coming back when she expected you to and it was a good way to draw your BIL and DH into a drama which i agree she started.

I wouldn't apologise to her as i think you weren't wrong, though i probably wouldn't be looking for a fight about it either. It'll blow over.

flyingelbows
is your Mil a "Narc" as diagnosed by a qualified mental health professional or just by you? Having grown up with a mother with a properly diagnosed actual real life full on personality disorder I cannot tell you how much mn osmo-diagnosis of personality disorders fucks me off.

Right, do you want to tell us how to get someone with NPD within 100 feet of a psychologist's office? Because I'd happily bet a year's wages that my mother has NPD, but one aspect of that is that she thinks she's perfect and it's the rest of us who're all mental. And she is very happy with that assessment.

The wonderful Richard Grannon has a great quote on this one - paraphrasing, but he says it doesn't really matter if it's NPD, or BPD, or malignant narcissism, or psychopathy or whatever label - if someone's being a dick, then you take steps to make sure that they can't hurt you any more.

But saying that, it does help to know what flavour of bullshit you're dealing with. My mother did and does tons of horrible things, she's a really unpleasant person to be around - but it's very hard to put your finger on what is happening. It's just weird. Why did she stop talking to me when I asked her to slice a lettuce lengthways instead of taking off all the leaves and washing them individually? Why is it that every time she offered to do me a favour it ended up costing me more time and money than if she'd never been involved? Why was it that she always referred to herself as "mummy" to my kids, and me as "gran", even when she was repeatedly asked not to? Each individual thing is just odd, and although your instincts are screaming that there's something deeply wrong with this person, it's only when you stumble on a description of personality disorders that you have the lightbulb moment and then have some idea of what you're dealing with.

If MIL has these narcissistic behaviours then loads of petty things/misunderstandings happen and YOU always look the unreasonable one - thats how it works - then it is NOT petty it is predictable shit.

Yes this exactly. And internet forums are the worst for stuff like this because when you write down one specific instance, the bare facts of it, it's really easy for nice people with nice inlaws to come on and say "well if my lovely MIL did that it would have been crossed wires, are you sure you told her all the relevant details?" But it's designed like this, the last thing she wants to do is get caught being horrible, because then the son and DIL will be a) onto her and b) united. It's all divide and conquer, all underhand. You can't prove a bloody thing. But you don't have to prove it, you just have to know how it works.

OP, don't let her look after your kids. Don't let her do any favours for you. It will all end this way. You've got a serious problem with your DH - if he doesn't see what's going on, your MIL is just going to keep trying to drive a wedge between you. One thing: was your DH the golden boy? Was someone else the scapegoat, one of the other siblings? The scapegoat might be your ally - although for Christ's sake be careful how you bring it up, because if it gets back to MIL she'll turn it into a shitstorm that will dwarf this one.

Also have you seen Stately Homes?

Total over reaction on your part OP

Bloody hell. Id be so much more angry than you seem! You don't take people's children anywhere without their explicit consent. Also, I'd be terrified when BIL said he'd be there in ten mins but wasn't back for a while, you have no idea where your DC was at that time. It's bullshit.
My MIL wouldn't be seeing my DC alone again but if you are going to let her, send her a text as proof of what you've asked her to do so no one can say there was confusion / claim you're being silly.

I think you have totally overreacted. You are being unreasonable.

Right, do you want to tell us how to get someone with NPD within 100 feet of a psychologist's office? Because I'd happily bet a year's wages that my mother has NPD, but one aspect of that is that she thinks she's perfect and it's the rest of us who're all mental. And she is very happy with that assessment.

The child of someone with a personality disorder probably does know what they are talking about. I'm a bit sceptical of all the people on mumsnet who claim their in laws are narcissists even though the children of those in laws think they are fine. I suspect that it is often more of a personality clash and I wonder what the in laws version of events would be. Obviously (as in this case) it depends on the back story though.

Bloody hell. Id be so much more angry than you seem! You don't take people's children anywhere without their explicit consent.

I disagree with that. If you leave your children with the grandparents for most of the day you can't say that they have to get your consent before leaving the house and otherwise need to stay in.

Toomuch, a fondness for parasuicide and desperation to be diagnosed as "psychotic" to avoid having to be responsible for her own behaviour is how my mother was diagnosed. But my mother is BPD and they're way more keen on the attention they can get than the straightforward Narcs are. She still thinks there's nothing wrong with her and so would you and anyone else who met her.

You don't have to tell me how fucking hard it is to get a person with a personality disorder the help they need. We've tried again and again and again and again and we've suffered again and again and again and again. I've cleared up after ambulances. I've sat in intensive are units hoping this time she'd die. I've nursed her like a child while neglecting my own. I've sat in a car 500 miles away while social services are in my house on the brink of taking my children into emergency care because she wasn't getting enough attention and threw the mother of all performances which killed our relationship, destroyed our family and left me with PTSD (my eldest child took up self harm and my sibling, also ironically a highly qualified health professional, regularly sees a psychiatrist) afraid of everything and terrified every time someone knocks the door. You, my friend, are preaching to the fucking choir!

Btw everything I've written there, and tge volumes I haven't, are why I can't stand when someone on mn claims their mil is a narcissist because she doesn't like their sofa cushions (which I have seen)!

Who knows if she is narcissistic, but you seem to be stropping over a missed haircut and your child having a fun afternoon swimming with his uncle.
You're offended because she's upset, over something she didn't want to mention in case you got offended! You didn't clarify timings, she didn't complain to you when you were later than she anticipated, and you're the one making threats now.
How old is MIL? Is she used to looking after small children? Is it possible she was a bit confused over your expectations?
I think you need to apologise and take her some flowers. Far from threatening not seeing the children, I think you should be making a point of being kinder, unless there's a massive back story.

I had a MIL exactly like this, and I wouldn't have understood it either if I hadn't gone through years of similar incidents - like previous posters, I might have thought it was "just a misunderstanding".

But it's not. I'm pretty sure she knew exactly what she was doing. It's a control game. She is trying to undermine you in a passive-aggressive way. As soon as she knew you had an appointment, she will have decided to do the opposite of what you wanted, just to exert her control and see how you liked it.

I eventually had counselling, and got some useful advice: my MIL (and I bet yours) can only see the world in child-adult relationships, rather than adult-adult. Usually she likes to be the adult in control. So she won't accept your requests/requirements about what the children can do/eat/where they go, because in her mind you are not the adult here and your opinions don't really matter.

When this becomes impossible, because you have got home and realised what she has done and objected to it, she reverts to being the child in the relationship with you, and it's a very young child having a toddler tantrum. She will cry and sulk and hope to get pitied.

This analysis made me see my MIL in a different light, and made me realise that the only thing I could really do was keep my distance as much as possible. I minimised all contact. It helped.