Are social services really stealing children?

[user1491583343]

Hi all,

I just seen a terrible documentary in Portugal where some parents living in the UK where asking the government to help them with their children, which were taken away by social services unfairly.

I know some of this documentaries can be only one sided but really made me wonder as they seem pretty terrified and genuine... I am also pregnant so this was really distressing to see. Some of the cases there in my opinion shouldn't lead to the kids been taken into fostering or adoption - they were too extreme and cruel.

To give one example a mum there, had her 2nd baby and noticed something wasn't okay as the new born baby seemed to shake every now and than... She took the baby to Hospital a few times (she showed all the letters and videos of the baby "shaking"). Apparently different doctors told her that was "hiccups" she was always sent home. 5 days latter her baby dies and social services take away her 3 year old as doctors believe she had "shaken the baby until he passed away" - even though the case was still under investigation the 3 year was given for adoption (not fostering), even though she had her grandparents living also in the UK with all the conditions to get custody of the child.

It's super scary but basically more medical exames have showed latter that the baby could have died due to epilepsy as their was no signs of agression, abuse etc... but as the child was placed into adoption this was already too late.

I am sure some details are missing but seemed so cruel that I decided to ask for opinions and see if anyone here has had any experiences.

The documentary also showed the pressure SS get to meet their targets and how it's not the first time that they are accused of lying etc...

Some parents in the documentary have showed concerns on seeking help from professionals due to this extreme procedures - for example another case their was a woman who got post-natal depression. She got her baby taken away after going to GP to discuss this matter, because the GP reported her to SS who have assumed she wouldn't have the ability to look after a child. We all know that woman can get depression but what is creating the problem is the fact that close family don't even get offered to foster. Children are given away and in most cases ends in adoption.

Would love to hear experiences and your thoughts on this.

Mega, MrsDV - Sorry, coming back late.

There's no value judgement on my earlier post. Generally speaking I think adoption is a positive.

But, asking a question about the system (as OP did) isn't a bad thing in itself and some of the comments on page one were a bit so I was just pointing out it was a fair enough question.

Other than that I do agree with your replies :)

It's idiotic to think that departments, well anybody, would have targets for the removal of children from perfectly good homes.

Give your head a wobble.

I am a foster carer and adoptor and believe me the evidence needed to release children for adoption is massive and judges make those decisions not sw anyway.
The courts require massive amounts of evidence in proceedings that take months to complete and to be really honest i have yet to find a single parent whose child has been removed who admits to ever having done anything wrong. The family courts and ss are not able to reply or present their side due to confidentiality so you are only getting a v one sided argument.
With my adopted child to listen to the parents you would think they were the worlds best whereas in reality they have 7 kids that they have had removed or have given to other relatives because they have lost interests and dad has been convicted of domestic violence against mum and at least one child but swears blind that he has never raised a finger to any of them despite doing some of it in front of medical professionals.

I've had 6 adoptions fall through because the legal system decided to give the natural parents one more chance. In The cases where I received follow up the children were severely traumatized & went straight back to care but with added SN which meant even if they were available to adopt again we wouldn't qualify.

Our country does too much to ensure natural parents get one more chance. It's often at the expense of the children's safety, well being, and future prospects.

dontpull I think as these comments show it's only those of us that have seen another side can really be impartial. We seem to be lumped into the group that are unable to see or admit to their own wrong doing, when in fact we had genuinely done nothing wrong. My DS was 4 days old when we were accused. We were treated like scum of the earth. I'm even finding it hard to read this thread tbh, with everyone saying that there's no smoke without fire etc. We were unlucky, SS do a magnificent job in the main, but mistakes can and do happen and it would be so helpful if people could admit to that.

Of course mistakes are made, at both ends of the spectrum. Some innocent parents are investigated, some children still get murdered. It's an impossible line to tread.

But I'm not sure those countries that have lower adoption rates have better outcomes?

Saul i am sorry that you are upset by this thread and yes i meant to add to my post that there are obviously some wrong decisions made just as occasionally people serve time for crimes they didnt commit . No system is infallible but i have seen first hand how parents can deny doing anything wrong when you saw it with your own eyes.
So sorry for your pain though xxx

What Gallavich said.
And yes, I'm a social worker.

I will share an experience here. When my DD was around 2 years old, she had several instances where she would stop using one or the other of her arms. We took her to hospital each time and each time within an hour or so she would just start using it again. Anyway one day it happened with her leg. Sat in A&E for an hour and again she started to use her limb (hadn't been distressed or in pain, just not using it). I decided to stay on and see a doctor because this was worrying me and I had hoped for a referral to investigate. Immediately the doctors were funny with me and I was escorted to a locked room and left in the height of summer. A foreign doctor came in (relevant point) and ignored me completely whilst starting to strip my daughter. He was very aggressive and made comments that I had been abusing my DD and you white women are too busy working etc. I was completely shocked and scared and demanded another doctor. He refused and proceeded to take pictures of my DD, including intimate ones. I was forbidden from leaving and told the police would be there shortly to arrest me for abuse. It was the most traumatic time I have ever experienced. I had no signal on my phone and they would not allow me to call anyone. Anyway a long story short after about 5 hours of waiting in a hot room (height of summer and they refused me water or food but did feed DD) police and social services arrived. They walked straight in and then out again apologising for getting the wrong room. 2 minutes later they came back in and were furious. They had the right room but completely the wrong information. The doctor had sent them information declaring my DD was covered from head to toe in bruises that were non-accidental. They even showed me the fax of the outline body, where he had faxed them indicating bruises everywhere. She had one small bruise on her shin in reality. The police and SS were amazing. They left me to gather my possessions whilst they went to find the doctor in question. I heard the dressing down from where I was on the other side of the ward. Why would he make up such allegations, why waste time etc. Unlawfully locking me up and so on. I was taken home by police and SS as protocol. They were happy there was no issue and that I had been the victim of the doctors personal vendetta (I believe he was racist towards me but couldn't prove it). They had spoken to Dds nursery etc. Eventually I received a full written apology from both the doctor personally and the hospital trust. He admitted lying and was sent for training. If I ever attend the hospital again he is not to be near me or my children. However the section notice remains on my file and can never be deleted. it has affected me hugely over the last 8 years. I always think twice about taking the children to a doctor. When I was pregnant I was terrified that all the HCP knew I had this mark on my record. I take copies of the apology letters to every appointment I attend. I was terrified that day but SS had common sense and worked well to get the situation in hand. I don't believe the doctor got what he deserved but I was too scared to push any further at that time.

I think what most people are saying is that there is no target for removal of children.

but mistakes can and do happen and it would be so helpful if people could admit to that.

Has anyone on this thread said otherwise?

The documentary, if it is the one we know, is poor and written from a very definite angle!!!

However there have been quite a few cases in the last few years, where 'miscarriages of justice' were done: children removed from innocent parents and then adopted. It was later proved that mistakes were made: often medical issues such as brittle bones, Aspergers, or Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, were not spotted or acknowledged.

One earlier poster said sw'ers don't hide evidence or convince a judge... I disagree. The social worker decides which way a case will go/ they run with it. The case is constructed by them and then presented to the judge.

Just imagine for one second if the original social worker had taken a different view in all these cases: imagine if they had said : something doesn't add up here, the parents don't appear abusive, they appear loving and caring.

If the couples in question were finally later able to find a consultant/paediatrician/specialist who suggested the parents weren't abusive, but it was ehlers-danlos',or another medical issue, then imagine if that view had been taken earlier, by the social worker, her manager, and the medical opinion.

I believe that social services have at times, made some awful decisions, neglectful, in some cases, extremely damaging, that social services haven't been held accountable over.

fizzing I am sorry that happened to you.
Something similar happened to me. Student Social Worker with a saviour complex and a great big dollop of racism against black men (my OH).
It was all sorted within a day and written off within the week.
I already had PTSD and this incident set back my recovery at least a couple of years.
If DS raised his voice I would have a panic attack incase someone heard and reported us (he has ASD). Even to this day he will threaten us with SS when he is distressed.

I hate it, HATE it when people on MN say 'oh well, if there is nothing to hide, no harm done'

Safeguarding is very important. Its is NOT something to be done on a whim or a 'hunch' based on ignorance and prejudice

It is one thing to accept that SWs occasionally make mistakes- just like doctors occasionally misdiagnose patients and give them the wrong medicine- and another to claim that SWs are routinely doing this to meet some kind of target. The latter would be akin to claiming that GPs are routinely poisoning off their patients to ease the burden on the NHS.

And I do speak as someone who has been unjustly suspected - though by a paediatrician, not by a SW. Of course harm was done, possibly as much harm as if he had accidentally prescribed a medicine I should not have been taken. I had flashbacks for years and had to struggle not to let it affect my parenting.

But that does not mean either that he did it on purpose or that I should tell everybody else to keep their children away from doctors.

Of course bad apples also occur in any profession. Harold Shipman was a poisoner. But that was not part of his training and most doctors are not like him. Just like most teachers are not paedophiles, though we happened to have two in ds' school. Same for SWs.

MN is a really good place to get decent unbiased advice. There's a few posters who work for children's services who go out there way to explain things on here.

I've had advice off Galla in the past which was a massive help.

As a CP social worker i was in the position many times of investigating children with injuries where the doctors had raised concerns. The most difficult were tiny, non mobile babies with injuries. I had to remove babies from the care of their parents whilst investigations were ongoing. I didn’t like it but i knew i had to do it, especially when you could see the family was distraught and genuinely could not fathom what had happened to their child. In some cases it was justified as it would come to light that one of the caregivers had done something to the child. In others there was no rational reason found for the injuries and SS would have to remain involved for a period to monitor and assess the parents. I absolutely understand this horrific for parents but it isn’t just SS making this call. Police and health are also involved in decision making and the decision to remove a child is not made lightly. The flip side was that there were children who were harmed and SS got it in the neck for not intervening sooner. I have to say this is the reason why i am no longer working as a social worker. It just got harder and harder to deal with the emotional fall out. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Many people who work at Social Services are incompetent and I could well believe some are nasty enough to lie and do other evil things. But I doubt there is a conspiracy... too much David Icke for my liking. More just a small number of twisted people who unfortunately work at ss so have the power to be cunts.

I can not give any details of what happened to me and my children because it is too outing!
There was nothing wrong with any of my children, however there was a peeved ex.
My point is that Social Workers listened to a rubbishy easily disproved complaint by someone with an axe to grind. They created havoc for a woman and children. They were furious when a Consultant saw through the situation and wrote off the whole thing. They just could not see that they had wronged a mother and children and at the very least an apology was due. It never came.
Years down line from this there is massive proof of how wrong they were. Again I cant be specific.
As a result of this and other matters I do not think Social Services are acting correctly.
What they did was laughable had it not been so serious

I'm sorry but targets for removing children??!! Would anyone who believes this like to expand upon why this would be the case?

Totally agree. To think SS have targets for removing children is batshit crazy. Why on earth would such targets exist... Who possibly stands to gain.

" But the children who are young enough to attach to new parents, who can join a new family and who will benefit from that sense of permanence, they should have the chance to get that start in life.
Many countries don't have 'forced adoption' so all children in care grow up in foster care or children's homes. That is simply not in their interests. The rights of children should take priority over the rights of parents."

I agree with that more or less, but I think it's a bit arrogant to just think that what the UK does is better than other developed countries and our EU partners. If the UK is in a minority doing this, it deserves to be looked at in my opinion.

"Why on earth would such targets exist... Who possibly stands to gain."

Isn't there a long list of people who want to adopt babies and small children (but the opposite situation for older children). I accept that there are no targets, but I can see a gain for potential adoptive parents in the case of babies and toddlers.

But adoptive parents aren't the ones removing children. Why would social services and the courts want to remove babies and toddlers to give to adoptive parents? Its incredibly time consuming and expensive, takes up valuable foster care space and brings social services no benefit.

There will be some dodgy goings on, like all industries I expect.

As a child who lived though the hands of SS I would say their care once they have the child in a home is well they don't give a shit. No counselling or help at all for a young child who found one of the people caring for them dead. Just a get over it attitude.

There are good and bad in every profession but my personal option from experience couldn't get much lower.

Isn't there a long list of people who want to adopt babies and small children (but the opposite situation for older children). I accept that there are no targets, but I can see a gain for potential adoptive parents in the case of babies and toddlers.

Adopters don't pay to adopt in the U.K. Where's the incentive for social workers/the courts to remove children from birth parents to give them to adoptive parents?