Supreme Court sides with government on term-time holidays

[Mulledwine1]

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-judgment.pdf

www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2016-0155-press-summary.pdf

AIBU to get the popcorn out for the discussion of why this is/is not a great judgment?

We're going on holiday a few days before next term - the last 2 days before Easter DD watched videos and we were told to pick them up from lunchtime on the Friday (early finish for teachers)
I don't think she will miss much

Instead of 'as' I should have put 'than' - too much time in the sun!

It all stems down to parenting - people who parent badly will most likely have children with poorer educational outcomes as those who parent well, regardless of whether they take a term time holiday here and there.

This^^. Parental involvement is one of the main indicators of educational achievement.

Fining someone is not going to make them a more supportive parent.

Some schools have done a lot to engage and inform parents which in turn reduces absences and is far more useful than blindly fining everyone. This takes resources however, which are being cut because of lack of funding.

IamRonnieBiggs private schools do not have to abide by this ruling so they don't.

parents with children in private schools don't have to pay the fines. That goes for ALL children in school in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Pakistan for 2 months is allowed because this would be given an exemption on religious grounds.

All absences are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Danny - yep. this is the category all of my children fit into. I claim my holiday. Oh yes, silly me, I could have done that before the fines came in because, I spoke to the head, I communicated with the teachers, we came to an arrangement and I made it as least intrusive to the rest of the class as possible.

Now what I need to do is make being a jedi a religion, part of that observance is 2 weeks in Spain and by just having an imaginary friend, I too can take my kids out of school on an authorised absence.

Oh and it doesn't matter about 2 music lessons a week or 1 music exam a term or 1 sporting event a week or the school ski ing trip because despite the fact my child wont be in class this wont cause any disruption whatsoever because it is authorised and we all know that an authorised absence doesn't cause any of the problems to the class that an unauthorised one does.

No Jacks11 you really cant see the argument about poorer families otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned florida. poorer families don't even get to the beach in this country. poorer families don't get nice weekends together because often their mums and dads work at the weekend and have 2 or 3 jobs.

But its ok because the rich families, who can afford to send their kids to private school and pay the fines and the higher prices and their kids get the music lessons and the after school clubs and all the other advantages - well they are just going to keep on getting them.

IamRonnieBiggs before you book those two days, I suggest you look very carefully at the judgement and that you speak to your LEA and school about their policy.

the court defined a session as half a day and the fine is £60 per parent per child per session. Your 2 days off if not authorised will be 4 sessions @ £120 per session (assuming 2 parent family) which makes by my maths £480. is it worth it now?

Sorry LassWiTheDelicateair you are in Scotland your kids aren't fined. Easy to say what a great policy it is when it doesn't directly affect you isn't it.

"Well they are just going to keep on getting them."

They are, and allowing kids term time holidays was never going to bring any kind of equity.

They are, and allowing kids term time holidays was never going to bring any kind of equity.

Banning term time holiday doesn't bring any kind of equity either.

Well actually as attendance and achievement are shown to be linked it might.

Lets be honest, the old system would have worked, had it not been for the parents that took the mick. Took holidays every year, took them at inappropriate times.

See the fuss people are making about this on here? That's the kind of thing people used to do if their request was turned down, on and on for days/weeks complaining.

If you want to blame anyone for the rule changes, blame them. everyone else is just dealing with the system.

But only 6% of parents took the Mick.

Why should everybody else be penalised for them?

You don't know how many parents took the mick, because most of them got authorised absences,.

Well actually as attendance and achievement are shown to be linked it might.

Well actually there has shown to be a correlation rather than a causation. Even if there were a causation it may well go the other way e.g. children who are not academically successful do not want to go to school.

you cant second guess the stats Danny you really cant.

no one has the first clue about how many absences the heads authorised which they shouldn't have because they didn't fall into the exceptional category.

this is a red herring. an absence is an absence. call it exceptional but its still a child not in their seat, not learning and causing all the apparent "problems" to teachers that you and others have been banging on about.

Why do you think people go on and on for days and days? because it is important to them that's why. And because they see all these other absences going on and DVD's at the end of term and enrichment days and school trips ski ing and all this other shit.

then they realise if you live in Scotland, N Ireland or Wales, it doesn't apply to you anyway.

its an erosion of my freedom to parent responsibly. its an erosion of the powers of head teachers and ultimately and erosion of the relationship between teachers and pupils.

and only in England where our children are apparently special.

You don't know how many parents took the mick, because most of them got authorised absences,.

That 6% was overall absences way back when. So it included sickness, holidays, the lot - every absence.
But it wasn't necessarily 6% of parents as most absences are by persistent absentees i.e. The same parents.

Lets be honest, the old system would have worked, had it not been for the parents that took the mick ... See the fuss people are making about this on here? That's the kind of thing people used to do if their request was turned down, on and on for days/weeks complaining

Exactly, Danny

we were told to pick them up from lunchtime on the Friday (early finish for teachers)

You're sure about that, are you? Quite certain, too, that those teachers weren't spending the afternoon in meetings or on a course, or any number of other education-related things?

"Why do you think people go on and on for days and days? because it is important to them that's why. And because they see all these other absences going on and DVD's at the end of term and enrichment days and school trips ski ing and all this other shit."

But in previous posts you said Head Teachers should be allowed to make the decision. The complaining for days and days went on then anyway!

Also, not many schools have the Ski Trip in term time, enrichment days and all this other shit? For someone who claims to back the teaching profession you are very dismissive of them.

Most people taking their kids out on holiday in term time are not going on educational holidays, the majority are going to resorts and hotels where its just a bit cheaper.

"its an erosion of my freedom to parent responsibly. its an erosion of the powers of head teachers and ultimately and erosion of the relationship between teachers and pupils. "

Its not an erosion of your rights, its working under the rules that both you and the school have to abide by. Many heads wanted far stricter controls and guidelines on term time holidays and welcomed the new rules and guidelines.

Its certainly doesn't erode relationships between teachers and pupils cause teachers don't have any of the decision making power over this.

Its only in England because education in the other parts of the UK is devolved. As the Scots are off for the summer considerably earlier than the English I doubt you get as much demand for special circumstances, their holidays are cheaper anyway.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

*Lets be honest, the old system would have worked, had it not been for the parents that took the mick ... See the fuss people are making about this on here? That's the kind of thing people used to do if their request was turned down, on and on for days/weeks complaining

Exactly, Danny*

Puzzled & Danny please take a took at absence stats before coming out with stuff like this. Those same parents are now just ringing in sick.

Here they are: (Full Year Release Main Texts are probably the best place to look.)
www.gov.uk/government/collections/statistics-pupil-absence

The complaining for days and days went on then anyway!

Parents are always going to complain about something Danny. Is the head far less busy now that authorising time off have been taken out of their hands?

Did you not read the previous post? 6% for all absences. The rest of us didn't have to jump through hoops and berate head teachers. We just filled in an absence form. I did it once during the Rev year the entire 7 years my dc were at primary school.

Absences due to illness decreased between 2014 and 2015 according to the data, although the number though holidays went up!

Why does the dad not just pay the fine? I wonder why he's keeping going or what his motivation is. I'm imagining it would be quite stressful to have an on-going court battle.

" Is the head far less busy now that authorising time off have been taken out of their hands?"

It has made a significant time saving yes, we publish the guidelines on what counts as exceptional etc, the number of requests has lowered significantly as has the number of children missing at crucial times. It really has made a beneficial impact in some areas.

Absences due to illness decreased between 2014 and 2015 according to the data, although the number though holidays went up!

See! Fines are not serving their purpose.

It has made a significant time saving yes, we publish the guidelines on what counts as exceptional etc, the number of requests has lowered significantly as has the number of children missing at crucial times. It really has made a beneficial impact in some areas.

Well that's great but I'd say to do with better communication with parents rather than fines.

Yet in 2011 absence for family holidays counted for 11% of all absence, and 7% of all absence in 2015, 6% of all absence in 2014.

It seems they have worked.