Anti vaxxers

[Tinhatsallround]

So the anti vaxxers seem to be out in force on social media at the moment and I'm finding it difficult to hold my tongue. I don't feel it's a choice in parenting that I can chalk up to a difference of opinion. AIBU to cut them out of my life and leave them to it? Or do I just change the subject when it cones up? I'm not sure I can stomach the selfishness of it.

Edsheeranalbumparty (great name btw), there is an emerging field that deals with the nonspecific effects of vaccines. I've linked to a couple of reviews below explaining some of what is known so far in an accessible way. Most vaccine schedules are based on the assumption that a particular vaccine (say Measles) will protect against that particular disease and do nothing else. There are now many studies showing that this is not the case, and that each vaccine has both a specific effect (so against Measles in case this case) but also a nonspecific effect on the immune system in general. This can be beneficial or detrimental, depending on the vaccine, but generally speaking live vaccines are 'good' and inactive ones are 'bad' for the immune system as a whole. For instance, there is a fair bit of evidence from developing countries that DTP increases all cause mortality (while lowering the rates of the diseases targeted), and a similar result has now been shown in Denmark, although in this case the outcome was an increase in respiratory infections.

There is also evidence that age, sex, and nutritional status can alter the effect of vaccines, which is also not acknowledged in the current schedule. A logical extension of that is that individual genetics may have an effect, which we're a long way from understanding.

I have also seen studies suggesting that the order in which vaccines are given, and whether more than one are given at once, can impact outcomes, but I'll have to dig those out.

The problem is that this entire field is not yet on the radar of the people making the decisions, and the assumption that you can give essentially unlimited vaccines simultaneously with no off target effects tends to prevail. Similarly, vaccine trials tend to only look at protection against targeted diseases as outcomes, and rarely look at infection rates as a whole or the development of allergies. As far as I'm aware there are no longer term studies into the effect of the current schedule (up to four at once, with Calpol in some cases) on the immune system as a whole. Our system is very reactive and only changes guidelines when there is clear evidence of a problem, so it is likely that this might remain the case for some years. This doesn't, however, mean it's the best medically. There is an awful lot that is still poorly understood about how the immune system works, and my argument is that we should exercise caution when 'modifying' it to cause as little disruption as possible. I think there is a clear need to protect against Measles, Polio etc, and so support vaccine use in principle, but I think in practice a safer approach would be to spread them out and lessen the 'assault' on the immune system at any one time.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3689344/

www.cell.com/trends/immunology/abstract/S1471-4906(13)00058-6?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1471490613000586%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

Thanks for those links youcannot , that is the type of stuff I queried when trying to decide about vaccines.

I am pro-vax, DC have had all their shots etc. However, I did it because I thought it was beneficial to them. If I really thought there was more risk than benefits to them I wouldn't have done it even if it was detrimental to the population as a whole.
Honestly I don't know anybody who would put their DC at risk to benefit the community!
They also had the chickenpox vaccine even if it is detrimental to the older unvaccinated population.

Yanbu OP. Cut them out. You do not need those tin foil hat wearing lunatics in your life.

So do childhood vaccines give life long protection or not? Because today I was assured they do.

Also, the NHS website is at odds with what happens at our practice.

I'll say it again, if the authorities want the public to whole heartedly trust them, then they must be transparent or at the bloody least give the same information. Medics also need to answer questions truthfully and without insinuating that you're against everything they stand for.

(They also might like to not get shitty when you ask them to wash their hands having handled pretty much the entire contents of their room and then go to your child with a needle that has been left open on the side for 10mins)

So do childhood vaccines give life long protection or not? Because today I was assured they do.

The short answer is 'probably not' although the duration of protection will vary with the vaccine. The MenB vaccine is likely to only give a couple of years of protection, if early laboratory results are any indication, although this hasn't been demonstrated in the field because it's too new. The whooping cough component of the 5 in 1 is likely to have worn off by the late teens, although the disease is likely to be less serious then. I'm not aware of any data on the other components of the 5 in 1, although diptheria and polio are essentially eradicated in this country anyway so not a problem. The Mumps component of the MMR is likely to wear off in the late teens/early twenties when the consequences of disease are much more serious, and there is some indication that the Measles part may wear off after 20 years or so as well (although this drop off isn't as dramatic as with Mumps).

There really isn't any evidence of life-long protection, certainly not across the board, so whoever told you this doesn't understand the field terribly well. (It's also important to note that 'natural' disease-mediated immunity also wears off, although it's likely to last longer.) I totally agree that this kind of blanket statement only undermines confidence in the healthcare profession (and their poor understanding of hygiene would worry me too!)

glue, the whooping cough vaccine doesn't last for life. Studies have shown that protection can start to wane after 12 months. There have been more cases in older children and adults. They don't tend to get the 'whoop' either so it can just seem like a persistent cough and they can be spreading it around without realising.

The mumps component of the MMR isn't as effective as originally thought. As I said earlier, there's currently research going on to improve it.

The MenB vaccine is relatively new but the manufacturer's info suggests that protection wanes after 12 months (for some strains more than others). From here

I agree that there needs to be more transparency. People need to know that vaccine protection wanes so they can still potentially catch and spread the disease even if they were vaccinated so that they can be vigilant and take appropriate precautions. This does not mean that people shouldn't vaccinate at all. Given that babies are most at risk of things like whooping cough and MenB they would at least have some protection during their most 'at risk' period. More boosters may be introduced though.

Oops! X-post You

I haven't read the WHOLE thread (sorry), but wondering if anti vaxxers are just against the childhood vaccines or all?

My dc had all the child ones that were given at the time, but I'm personally against the hpv vaccine for my dd.

No worries Bumbley. I have to admit that I thought your whooping cough statistic might be overly pessimistic, but on looking it up again I'm shocked to find that protection does indeed start to wane very quickly! Also, a lot of the studies I'm looking at consider a five dose schedule before age 7, compared to our four dose schedule, so the situation in the UK may be even worse than the literature suggests.

Yes, I was really shocked by that as well.

Thank you bumbly and youcannotbeserious. I think more people need to know this. I'm pretty shocked! Thought it would be much better than that.

Actually that's got me thinking.

Because of vaccinations, have we become too complacent about these diseases?

IRONwoman, before I'm lynched I have to preface this by saying my own two children are vaccinated but in your dd's case I'd avoid loading more on top until she's older. She has reacted to the first lot and you saw that. It's measuring risk and in your dd's case the biggest risk mightn't be the same as in the girl in the house next door. I am trying to choose my words carefully here.

I know that take up rates are falling below 95% and that that's a big problem but if they want the take up rate to rise again they need to acknowledge that a small but not imagined group of children may be more susceptible to a reaction. Acknowledge that. Research that. Aggressive types on line will say that showing ''anti-vaxxers'' a picture of a coffin containing a child who died of measles will scare the parents in to vaccinating, but clearly, parents have other worries, things they have observed in their own homes and wider families that they daren't say out loud really.

Thanks platinum. I think your right.

"AIBU to cut them out of my life and leave them to it? Or do I just change the subject when it cones up?"

I could not associate with someone who promoted this stuff; it's child abuse, and it puts all our kids at risk. DD2 had to have her regular vaccines quite late for health reasons- thank god for herd immunity.

I think we should avoid judging all reasonable, private conduct in friends; but things like anti-vaxers, racism, psychics, homeopaths, extreme misogyny and estate agents are beyond the pale.

The lovely mother of one of my dearest friends has extremely compromised immunity due to chemotherapy. I'm trying very hard to bite my tongue around the anti-vaxxers in our mutual friendship circle but the idea that this awesome woman, who so desperately needs the benefits of herd immunity right now, is being put at risk makes it very hard to keep my massive gob shut.

Glue, I would say in some cases, yes. People assume that because they've been vaccinated then they're immune which isn't always the case.

When there was the discussion panel for introducing the MenB vaccine to older children, one of the parents made a comment about how having the vaccine would allow them to rule out meningitis if their child got ill - giving them peace of mind. With meningitis that kind of thinking could be so dangerous

Bumbley, I remember the parents (and I think maybe one of the Drs) saying that having the Men B vaccine would enable them to rule it out, and I know there was discussion on here about it afterwards. (The vaccine experts contradicted this, but people may not have heard that part). That kind of absolute faith in vaccines, which unfortunately seems to permeate the medical profession too, is dangerous because it does lead to delays in diagnosis. As you say, with Meningitis this could be absolutely tragic, especially as the Men B vaccine has led to a relatively modest decrease in cases (far less than the impact the Men C vaccine had for instance). Vaccines can be very useful tools, but are often far less effective than many people assume.

I am an anti vaxxer, don't jump down my throat... i understand the concern and risks from both sides of the table, what concerns me the most is the fact that doctors do not ever disclose the damages that can be caused by vaccination and i'm not talking about autism. Its funny how people are told to discontinue use of certain medications if they suffer an allergic reaction but vaccinations are perfectly safe. Its not i don't agree that vaccination can be a good thing, however the severe damages it causes thousands of people every year is always brushed under the carpet for fear of bad PR. The poor dr who linked MMR with autism lost his license to practice medicine because of the bad PR it caused, obviously this makes other drs think twice before they raise their true concerns for vaccinations. I just think people are too ignorant or lazy to do proper research to understand the true risks of vaccines for long term health.

I completely understand your concerns, however those who have been vaccinated aren't totally immune to diseases and in some causes the vaccine actually triggers an outbreak. Some peoples bodies don't even take to it without knowing. Those who are going through such illnesses is heartbreaking, and those who have an outbreak of certain diseases would and should never be out and about near fully healthy people yet alone those who are vulnerable.

I had to stop following one on Twitter and blocked her because she just made me angry. I'm autistic, and there's a lot of 'I'd rather have a dead kid than an autistic one' in the antivaxx movement because people still believe vaccines cause autism (even though it's been debunked dozens of times). Like, sorry for not being open-minded about people who think people like me don't deserve to be alive.

I’ve never had a any in my life my parents didn’t believe in them.
Is it too late to get them?