Anti vaxxers

[Tinhatsallround]

So the anti vaxxers seem to be out in force on social media at the moment and I'm finding it difficult to hold my tongue. I don't feel it's a choice in parenting that I can chalk up to a difference of opinion. AIBU to cut them out of my life and leave them to it? Or do I just change the subject when it cones up? I'm not sure I can stomach the selfishness of it.

How hard is that to comprehend?! I'm sorry to be blunt but I'd rather have an autistic child that a dead child

That wouldn't be the choice though, would it? Children have been damaged by vaccines, that is a fact, it is not just about autism. And many children have had illnesses like measles, mumps or rubella and come out the other side with no long term damage thanks to medication or the disease only being mild in the first place.

Arguments like that do nothing to make a point to anti vaxxers.

Fair enough beavered - if they thought she was particularly at risk. In general, babies are considered to be protected at that age and that is the reason why the vaccine is offered later than the others. From the NHS

"Babies under six months old are not routinely given the MMR vaccine. This is because the antibodies to measles, mumps and rubella passed from mother to baby at the time of birth are retained and can work against the vaccine, meaning that the vaccine is not usually effective.
These maternal antibodies decline with age and are almost all gone by the time MMR is normally given – around the age of one.
MMR vaccination is recommended for six- to nine-month-old babies if they are at high risk of becoming infected in certain circumstances, such as during a measles outbreak."

Osolea, yes they are being selfish, they may be doing what they believe is best for their children but that is without any concern for and at the expense of the wider community their children are part of. It is not a decision that only affects them it has life and death ramifications for many people they will come into contact with.

Again it is not people raising questions and looking for information I am taking issue with, it is people pushing a dangerous agenda as if vaccines are more dangerous than disease, this simply isn't true.

bumbley that extract is saying that antibodies present may interfere with the effectiveness of the vaccine, not that there is sufficient passive immunity to elicit a satisfactory immune response to active measles.

Vaccine damage is real. All the focus goes on autism completely unfoundedly. But we have vaccine damage payments compensation presicesly because it DOES happen. Epilepsy being a scenario I know of regarding one child.

It's really about weighing up risks and supporting those risks with actual facts rather than proving something is safe or unsafe.

Would really help if autism was not the assumption of what anti-vaxxers believe they're avoiding. Before I get stoned I'm not an anti-Vader!

Entirely agree that people don't make the decision based on being selfish though. They truly believe they're protecting their children

Anti-Vaxxer not Vader!

Osolea maybe that's why I can never an anti vaxxer mentality then because I just can't see it any other way. It's all about risk assessment... and I assess the risk to be greater without vax. And I can't see how anyone could see it otherwise.

I also think the nhs wouldn't spend so much money on vaccines if they weren't massively effective.

Never understand anti vaxxer mentality ffs what's wrong with me today 😒

In my experience people see it otherwise often having been conditioned to see it otherwise - maybe mistrust in the government, medicine, science, maybe religious reasons, maybe personal experience, maybe post natal anxiety or depression interfering with critical thought...

It's not that hard to consider

When children have had a significant reaction to the early vaccines (2,3 or 4 months) why are there concerns about vaccines not taken seriously and the option of spreading out the 12 month vaccines not offered? I'm not necessarily talking about single vaccines for each disease, rather not giving 3 combined (or is it 4?) vaccines all in one go? With the addition of the new meningitis vaccine which is given at 12 months, alongside the others, the vaccine programme is 'heavier' than ever before. We delayed the MMR at 12 months, not because I didn't want ds to have it but because some of the vaccines are live and I didn't want them all given at once due to a significant reaction at his 2 month injections.
I have a teenager with very severe autism and learning disabilities which I do not believe had anything to do with the MMR and I am not anti vaccine but I had concerns about the amount of immunisations offered in one go at 12 months. If that makes me a bad person then I am a bad person.

What happens if their child goes on to need chemotherapy or suchlike and become immunocompromised? They will need herd immunity to protect them then.

Beavered, yes, I know what it says.

Studies have shown that babies typically have protection to measles from maternal antibodies in the early months. (Lasting longer if the mother had contracted measles herself compared to if she had the vaccine) Obviously there was reason to think that your baby didn't have sufficient antibodies to protect her. But, in general, babies are considered protected at that age - there are plenty of studies tracking the waning of maternal antibodies to help determine when the vaccines should be given and they show that babies typically have adequate antibodies from their mother to protect them at that age.

bumbley our GP, an immunologist, a pathologist and the NHS health protection agency advised that large volume immunoglobulins were necessary. I did my own research (I'm a pharmacist), and I agreed she was at risk. So thanks for doing a quick Google but I'm happy we were well informed at the time.

Vaccine damage is very real. I have a young child with extensive digestive issues, epilepsy and severe brain damage caused by the DTAP vaccine, plus also a cover-all autism diagnosis. He is severely disabled and our lives are a living hell because of him and his needs. He has a twin who had the vaccines at the same time and is fine.

I daren't even mention the possibity of vaccine damage to other parents as I get insulted and called the most disgusting names. What they don't seem to realise is that every parent with a vaccine damaged child was once a pro vaxxer and is just trying to save other families from suffering the same hearbreak. I don't know why people would choose to discount these people's real life experiences and instead prefer to believe the word of a massive money making industry. A similar industry to the one who used to tell us that cigarettes are healthy, I might add.

For those of you who would rather have an autistic child than a dead child - I promise you that after a month with a very severely autistic child you will certainly wish either them or yourself dead.

Beavered, I have not once disagreed with their assessment of your daughter's particular circumstances. I suggest you reread my posts.

Emily

I disagree, I think it is selfish not to vaccinate your own child, as you are essentially relying on everyone else to vaccinate their children to keep the incidence of the disease down and create the herd immunity effect. I've yet to see anything by an anti-vaxxer which suggests safer alternatives to vaccination. If we all decided not to vaccinate, we would return to the days where children were permanently afflicted or even died as a result of a preventable disease

bumbley I won't if it's all the same to you- you've said nothing that Google couldn't tell anyone in 30 seconds.

Well, yes, beavered. The information is hardly being kept a secret. What the medical professionals decided to do in your daughter's particular case is between you and them.

Generally vaccine coverage in the UK is very high. Mumps is resurging in fully vaccinated older teenagers and young adults because the Mumps component of the MMR isn't as good as expected, and unfortunately wears off at an age when it is more problematic (it is generally extremely mild in young children). Older adults who had the disease tend to retain more immunity, which is why the outbreaks tend to be in the young adult demographic.

I agree with others that starting off with the assumption that someone is stupid and/or selfish for questioning the benefit of vaccines in their particular circumstance, or the schedule for that matter, is unlikely to be persuasive. Vaccines are all different, with different levels of effectiveness and different levels of side effects, and answering any query about any of them with a variation of "vaccines don't cause autism, Wakefield was struck off" (as I've known many medical professionals to do) just makes them seem as though they're not really understanding the concerns.

Fwiw I think there is a strong scientific case to be made against the current schedule which gives many vaccines simultaneously. If you take some time to read up on the field of non-specific vaccine interactions in Pubmed it can be an eye opener. I suspect a spread out schedule isn't routinely offered (but is available if you ask for it) for logistical reasons, but this doesn't necessarily make it the best scientifically or medically.

bumbley finally the penny has dropped

Beavered, I said that from the start. Which you would have seen if you reread

Emily I am truly sorry for you and your son that sounds utterly horrific.

However, for some reason the fact that vaccines sometimes go wrong is a massive issue. If a child took a reactionto say amoxicillin I can't imagine a campaign warning parents of the dangers of antibiotics. even if it causes permanent damage. Yes when it's a vaccine it's a different story.

bumbley you implied she may have been particularly at risk which is why they took action that was different from what you found in your "research" today. She wasn't- standard protocol was followed for exposure at her age.

*I promise you that after a month with a very severely autistic child you will certainly wish either them or yourself dead.^

We have felt this way a few times too Emily . people Don't understand the reality of living with severe autism unless they have lived with it.