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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why you do or don't believe in God?

999 replies

summerbloom · 28/03/2017 21:03

Interested to hear people's views on why they do believe in God or on why you don't believe in God.....

OP posts:
Goldfishjane · 29/03/2017 00:40

Also OP, those blaming god must actually believe in god, the atheists among us aren't going to blame god!

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 00:51

JustAnotherPoster00

Nope neither. You give all chocolate eggs to me and I will deal with them for you. I will remember you in my prayers for them too Smile

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 00:52

Just some of my jotted down thoughts.

1 - God is the best explanation for Human existence. Scientific consensus is evolution is true, but still no consensus on the origins of the universe. Popped from nothing into something? multi universes? Or a creator God?

2 Human purpose - a sense more to life than we and universe will die one day. Alternative we just are a bunch of atoms. Find that hard to believe. Where does sense of human worth and purpose come from?

3 for human morality - don't believe one has to believe in God to be good, but on what do we base our moral standard on? I believe we do have an innate moral standard. Don't think evolutionary ethics explains it fully. It feels like there is the capacity of good and evil within us.

God to me represents all that is good. yet somehow something has gone wrong as suffering does exist but I do not believe it is from God.

MadamePomfrey · 29/03/2017 01:00

A lot of people are using the argument of evil, cruelty and disease etc.... the answer is likely found in the word 'evil'. Evil people, evil forces etc..... a question that often comes to my mind is why are people quick to turn to blame God in disaster and despair and not to humanity?

So it humanities fault a child dies in pain due to cancer?

It's humanities fault every day innocent children suffer from diseases and illnesses?? That cause suffering and in some case ultimately death??

Please explain op how humanity cause this?? And if so why a loving kind caring god doesn't put a stop to it and help the innocent children that suffer?

user1490473793 · 29/03/2017 01:00

I don't believe,as most clergymen, vicar's etc don't ither! Look at the ones who commit rape,abuse, have affairs etc etc... RELIGION IS THE RUINATION OF THIS WORLD. As well as the internet. AMEN LOL

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 01:04

I don't think whether someone believes or not has much bearing on whether they're a nasty fucker. If they are going to do horrific things, the nasty fuckers will always find some way to justify it, believers or not.

SuperBeagle · 29/03/2017 01:04

So we're supposed to believe in this omnipotent, all-powerful God who is responsible for everything good in this world. But we're not supposed to believe that this God is responsible for the suffering and bad things in this world?

And if humanity is to blame, then, by extension, so is that God. After all, it was he who created humankind, correct?

Goldfishjane · 29/03/2017 01:06

Can I just point out that decent adults get diseases too, they are "innocent" as well in that regard, they can be good people who are not guilty of doing anything awful.

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 01:08

Religion has certainly been used for bad (as well as good) but so have non religious value systems, Mao, Russia etc. As i read someone say it's ideas from the human heart that can cause so much damage. I observe humans are capable of both great and good.

user1490473793 · 29/03/2017 01:12

There is no god!! Plain and simple. Old people go to church on a Sunday cos they are shit scared they will go down not up when they pop. Plain and simple. Church is a tax dodge,mostly for farmers. Which is what i got told by the vicar after he sat and watched me get beat up in bible class by the farmers daughter! That's why he couldn't intervene the parents gave a lot of money!!!! NOW PEOPLE YOU TELL ME IS THERE A GOD....ME THINKS NOT!!!

MadamePomfrey · 29/03/2017 01:13

Goldfish your absolutely right apologies if my post suggested otherwise I just work in a field that deals with children so it's more on my mind but your right innocent adults also get these horrible diseases.

mimishimmi · 29/03/2017 01:22

I don't think whether someone believes or not has much bearing on whether they're a nasty fucker. If they are going to do horrific things, the nasty fuckers will always find some way to justify it, believers or not.

This

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 01:25

With regards to terrible suffering, I would ask why do we get so upset about it if at the end of the day the universe is meaningless and we are just a product of our DNA? For me that points to us believing there is a innate sense of human worth and where does that belief in human worth and value come from? I would say to a creator God. Much I don't understand but my observation of reality is God is the best explanation. I don't understand much of God's purpose for us but I trust ultimately it is good, even if good does not play out in a person's life on earth.

Goldfishjane · 29/03/2017 01:31

Sleepy owl "With regards to terrible suffering, I would ask why do we get so upset about it if at the end of the day the universe is meaningless"

Um, hello? When you've been mashed in an accident and don't know if you'll walk again you don't get upset about the meaningless of the universe. You want to be out of pain and in my case I wanted to fucking walk again. I realise you're about to tell me you went through similar and just lay in your hospital bed thinking "ah, but god" but me, I wanted the Valium.

And many people suffer that kind of pain and illness daily. Great if they are taking some comfort from their beliefs, but really, did you think for a millisecond before you posted that?

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 01:41

Thank you for your comment Goldfish. Of course when we personally experience pain and suffering it is not meaningless for us. It's horrible. I am talking of the meta view of ultimately if the universe is meaningless then an individual's suffering isn't bad or good, it is just is. I don't think that I think suffering is awful.

thefairyfellersmasterstroke · 29/03/2017 01:43

I always feel religious belief is awfully primitive, and really struggle to understand why people still indulge in it.

I perfectly get how our ancient ancestors, without the rationale of science and advanced thought, created the idea of an entity in the heavens to explain all the natural phenomena that seemed to emanate from "above", e.g. the sun, rain, thunder and lightning. Then tried to placate that entity by worshipping it as a god to ward off bad things, so you can see how that evolved into the notion of a grumpy Zeus hurling thunderbolts came about, etc.

But so much of the unexplained that led to the original belief in a god in the heavens is now basic general knowledge, and the organisation of religion for political purposes is well documented. There has never been a shred of evidence in thousands of years that such an entity exists, so the only logical conclusion is that it doesn't.

CalmItKermitt · 29/03/2017 01:50

Nope.

It amazes me that people find the Big Bang/evolution unlikely but are willing to believe in something far more unlikely.

tillytown · 29/03/2017 01:53

I don't believe in God, and most of the people I know who say they do don't really, they just like the idea of an afterlife, which is fair enough if it helps them deal with death.

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 01:58

Somebody earlier posted Stephen Fry's heartfelt interview on why he does believe in God. To follow is a Christian's response to it. I appreciate the arguments the author puts forward may not convince all but I thought I would share it to show another viewpoint

"Dear Stephen,

I saw your video about what, if you met God, you'd say to him - that when you look at all the suffering in the world he's created you'd call him a 'stupid, evil, maniac'.

I'm a Christian and my first reaction was to want to leap to God's defence and fire back five bulletproof arguments about why you're wrong!

But, in fact, I don't think you were offering an argument as such - more an expression of your anger at the way the world is if there's supposed to be a loving God in charge. And that is something we can all share.

So instead of offering a philosophical rebuttal I want to tell you a story instead, a story about God.

You and I probably don’t have much in common with each other, but we do share a mutual love of the literary genius of Oscar Wilde. I know you feel a strong connection with Wilde, but I have something in common with him too. Wilde believed in the same God as me...

I’ve been reading Oscar Wilde’s 'Stories for Children' to my kids recently but I think they’re actually stories for everybody.

My favourite story is The Selfish Giant – I’m sure you know it. And in it I think Wilde grasps the heart of who God is.

At the centre of the story is a garden where children used to play, but because of the giant’s selfishness it’s now winter all year round, and no children come to play.

We now live in the winter world
At the beginning of the Christian story there’s a garden too. However you interpret that story, fundamentally it’s about a world gone wrong from early on because of us, and that is now bent out of shape in all kinds of ways. We now live in the winter world.

Then along comes a child, standing underneath a bare tree in the giant’s garden that it cannot climb into. The giant has change of heart and lifts the child into the tree, and the tree bursts into blossom. From that day on the winter is over and the spring arrives, and children play again in the garden.

But that child whom the giant loves never reappears until the giant grows old. One day during winter (and Wilde adds 'he did not hate the winter now, for he knew that it was merely the spring asleep') the giant sees the child return. The tree is covered in blossoms and gold and silver fruit. Under it is the child:

'Downstairs ran the giant in great joy and into the garden. He hastened across the grass, and came near to the child. And when he came quite close his face grew red with anger, and he said “Who hath dared to wound thee?” For on the palms of the child’s hands were the prints of two nails, and the prints of two nails were on the little feet.

“Nay” answered the child; “but these are the wounds of love”.'

A cross and nail prints, the wounds of love, define this God
Wilde recognized that God is not a tyrant who makes the world an evil place. In a world that has been bent out of shape because of us, where winter reigns and the blossoms are few and far between, we have a God who has entered the darkness and borne it himself. A cross and nail prints - the wounds of love - define this God.

'“Who art thou?” said the Giant, and a strange awe fell on him, and he knelt before the little child.

And the child smiled on the giant and said to him “You let me play once in your garden, today you shall come with me to my garden, which is paradise”

And when the children ran in that afternoon, they found the Giant lying dead under the tree, all covered with white blossoms.'

I know, this does’t necessarily answer your question of why God, if he exists, allows suffering. I think there are reasons for that, but even if I gave you a brilliant explanation its not going to be much use to the parent who has lost their child to bone cancer. However, what may help is knowing that we aren’t alone in a universe where our fate is simply a roll of the dice and suffering is a brute fact that has no ultimate answer.

For people who suffer in all kinds of ways, Oscar Wilde’s God, the God expressed in Jesus Christ who enters our winter world and takes on suffering to bring us the promised spring, may be the one hope that allows them to make sense of the very real suffering they do go through. I even dare to think that world, in which such love can be expressed, is the best one we could hope for.

So Stephen I don’t believe in your God standing guard at the pearly gates, anymore than you do. I do believe in the God of Oscar Wilde. The God who came as a child, and on a tree and with nail printed hands has brought the spring again. That’s a God worth believing in."

CakesRUs · 29/03/2017 02:00

After spending 2 years on on oncology ward and losing my beautiful daughter and also have a severely disabled son, I don't believe in god. I don't believe in karma, bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad (just think of Saville, dying at a ripe old age in his bed).

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 02:00

Typo, above 'why Stephen Fry does not believe in God"

LoupGarou · 29/03/2017 02:06

CakesRUs Flowers

I think going through horrific things has a very strong effect on belief, it either seems to turn people towards belief, or lead believers to reject their previous beliefs, or at the very least question them.

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 02:07

CalmitKermit, a belief in God does not have to preclude a belief in evolution or the Big Bang. scientific consensus is clear these happened. The question is the origin of the Big Bang. something from nothing? Multi universe? creator God?

sleepyowl12 · 29/03/2017 02:10

@CakesRUs, I am deeply sorry for all you have gone through.

Out2pasture · 29/03/2017 02:32

I was taught about God as a small child, I pray my own way and believe my own concept.
Many times in my life I've found thinking stressful situations through and realizing I have no control to be a relief.
I've had half a dozen or more experiences that I attribute to Devine intervention.

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