Why you do or don't believe in God?

[summerbloom]

Interested to hear people's views on why they do believe in God or on why you don't believe in God.....

More practically, where's the evidence? Since it's purely based on faith, and there is no empirical evidence for the existence of a god, I might just as well believe in unicorns. Except people would think I'm nuts. Even religious people. Yet the exact same quantum of proof applies to both. If you can believe in one and that's somehow credible and acceptable, then the same standard should apply to the other.

Exactly. If I said I believed in unicorns my very Christian cousin would think i was bonkers. But all my cousin has as evidence for their beliefs is that theirs are more 'socially acceptable'.

I am a teacher and was teaching the Easter story this week. Obviously i had to put in the old 'this is a story that some people believe' caveat, but as i was going through it all i could think is 'how could anyone believe this absolute bollocks actually happened?' Like, do Christians actually believe that Jesus came back to life after 3 days? That that actually happened? Or is it a metaphor?

It baffles me that grown adults would believe in an actual 'God'. Baffles me.

why would a supposedly beneficent god not step in to protect the innocent? The life force I believe in doesn't interfere with protecting the innocent, us humans have everything we need to do this ourselves.

Why not? It it just a toy to "the source"? I don't know why the source needs to create love and energy.

But why, if you are omnipotent, would you create a planet in such a way that it kills and maims the human beings you also created? I don't know why the planet has to evolve but it does all the same.

As I said before, if the world was perfect and humans never suffered then we wouldn't be able to learn and grow. We also wouldn't be able to experience unconditional love and joy if we never experienced the opposite.

Saying things like 'we are the life force' is all very nice but not really anything to do with believing in a god which was the question posed at the start of this thread. 'Life force' is a nebulous concept which could be described in biological terms or spiritual terms but is not the same as believing in a god. For example, I might use the term 'soul' in the vernacular; I mean not some God-given immortal part of me, but rahter the essence of my personality, the things that matter to me, the music and art that moves me. So if when I go for a walk in beautiful country side I say "It's good for the soul" I simply mean that I feel uplifted and better for walking in beautiful countryside. And 'life force' feels a bit like that usage to me.

Developing, that argument is pretty much "God cannot exist if humans exist." Because, it essentially argues that if god is real, there would be no suffering. To remove suffering we must remove death and pain. Instead of being human, we would be immortals living in a cotton wool world and therefore not human at all.

"Do you not think 99.9% of suffering is down to humans"

No actually, I don't.

I've lost friends to AIDS, to cancer, to a sudden heart attack, to a train crash and various other events.

They didn't bring that on themselves, no humans did. It was the world working the way it works. Any benevolent God would have intervened, surely? I hate the "God brings suffering to test your faith" bullshit. Oh really? So my sister had to die of cancer because I don't believe in God? For what it's worth, my sister was a devout catholic, so clearly faith did nothing to help her.

THIS is what I hate about religion. The idea that we bring stuff on ourselves because we don't believe or don't believe strongly enough. It's just a way to guilt people into buying your claptrap!

I think of God as another word for Soul, Life Force or Source. One and the same. I believe the Soul is who we are, not the body or mind.
I agree, a walk in the countryside is good for the Soul, brings us closer to nature which is good for us.

God, Soul, Life Force, Source I believe is in every living thing.

To remove suffering we must remove death and pain. Instead of being human, we would be immortals living in a cotton wool world and therefore not human at all. I agree, we need this to develop.

I just like to say, it's nice to have a decent discussion for a change on a thread like this. Thank you for that.

not the body or mind

Everything we have observed about our brain and brain damage shows that we are very much our physical brain.

The life force I believe in doesn't interfere with protecting the innocent, us humans have everything we need to do this ourselves

No, we don't. If we could prevent a baby from having something like epidermolysis bullosa, don't you think we would be doing it?

I don't know why the source needs to create love and energy

Clearly creating disease and something that will inevitably cause natural disasters isn't creating love. Do you really want to worship someone or something that thinks it's OK to create all of that for any purpose?

I don't know why the planet has to evolve but it does all the same.

It has to evolve because physics. Clearly it wasn't designed to do so. If it was designed in such a way that disasters kill thousands are bound to happen as a result of the design, the designer is inherently cruel.

As I said before, if the world was perfect and humans never suffered then we wouldn't be able to learn and grow. We also wouldn't be able to experience unconditional love and joy if we never experienced the opposite.

How much unconditional love and joy does a child dying in agony experience?

When I say 'soul' I'm using a shorthand to refer to something that is created by my body and my mind. My sense of 'me' is just a product of my brain and my body. I think that 'life force' is the same. Humans have as organisms a 'life force' that propels them to eat, reproduce, keep themselves alive, and now that we have become so good at doing these things we're able to concentrate on the 'self-actualisation' part of the hierarchy of needs (if you think that model is one way of looking at things.) I'm not sure there is any greater 'life force' that is tending towards making humankind better or kinder. In small(er) communities people tend broadly to cooperate for the benefit of the community as that is for their own benefit, but that doesn't seem to extend more widely - hence all those raging Daily Mail articles against 'foreign aid' but in favour of the local hospital not closing.

"God brings suffering to test your faith" bullshit. It's got nothing to do with testing faith. In fact, suffering like this can sometimes be a catalyst to open someone up to becoming spiritual, not always of course.
I'm not religious btw. I don't follow any particular one, in fact I have a major problem with mostly man made religions. Turns people away a lot of the time.

But we know suffering devestates people's ability to live good and productive lives. In not talking about forgetting your packed lunch, we're talking about the sorts of suffering that we collectively try to prevent through organisations such as Red Cross/ NSPCC and so on. Or would you rather these organisations didn't exists so that we were all more spiritual.

The data is clear, children who suffer in the worst ways in childhood have much poorer outcomes.

If we could prevent a baby from having something like epidermolysis bullosa, don't you think we would be doing it? Yes, I should hope we would.

Clearly creating disease and something that will inevitably cause natural disasters isn't creating love. Do you really want to worship someone or something that thinks it's OK to create all of that for any purpose? Creation has faults. I don't worship.

It has to evolve because physics. Clearly it wasn't designed to do so. That's right physics. Why wouldn't it be designed to do this.

How much unconditional love and joy does a child dying in agony experience? The child wouldn't of course but the people around may do through their suffering. People that have been through the most awful suffering still have the capacity to love don't they.

Or would you rather these organisations didn't exists We need more of these organisations.

children who suffer in the worst ways in childhood have much poorer outcomes. Yes, I agree. Back again to humans inflicting suffering onto one another.

Im not keen on the idea that suffering promotes spirituality and that it is necessary. It's inevitable and I believe we should make the best out of the life we have and that experiences shape us but many people are loving and generous without having had any great suffering so it's not a necessary requirement.

Oh wow, so a dying child is OK because the people around them might open up to spirituality? Fucking hell.

This is where I have to be quiet, because I can't even conceive how someone can be as stupid, tactless and horrible to even say that in the first place.

My son almost dying did not open me up to spirituality, in fact if anything it took any tiny amount I might have had away from me. 'Spirituality' and religion targets vulnerable people and it's disgusting. That's why I'd get rid of it all if I could.

I do and I don't. I do because how of how miraculous the world is, there's probably a force behind it that humans havent and probably never will identify, so who am I to say what that is?

However I also find the same as Babycham - that religion targets vulnerable people. I see it all the time in my job - people who have found God at a crisis stricken time of life. And members of the church taking advantage of it. This is evangelical churches I am talking about here, they are like a cult in some parts of Northern ireland. They force vulnerable people to become part of their church and of course in the end theres profit it in for them. I hate them.

I do see the benefit of decent churches and the work they do in the community though.

1. There is a god/life force because I have had "experiences"

1. There is a god/life force because others I know have had these "experiences"

1. There is a god/life force because there surely must be something I think

1. There is a god/life force because surely life is too amazing to not have something

Jesus Christ.

I can't even conceive how someone can be as stupid, tactless and horrible to even say that in the first place. Sorry you feel that way and for your troubles.

Jaagojaago Points 3 and 4 are nothing to do with anything I've quoted. I'm not sure what Jesus Christ has got to do with matters in hand

Now this thread is coming to an end, I have to say that I am heartened that so many posters respect, like and even love those with different beliefs to themselves. After all, it is not really important what we believe regarding the existence of deities, what is important is how we treat each other.

Peace and love.

many people are loving and generous without having had any great suffering That's right, but no one is without suffering, even if smaller compared to others.

I think it was a fable that got out of hand which is why we have so many variants. I don't need a god to comfort me in times of trouble or rejoice in when times are good. I look inwards for strength. althoughifanyonecanspareanyrightnow

Yes Dione nice to see. How we treat each other is the most important thing. Peace and Love.

I look inwards for strength. You got it. :-)