Transgender child the subject of a class reader?

[armpitz]

here

Now, I haven't read it yet but AIBU to be a bit unsure about this?

I will read it properly and feed back, but from the blurb and reviews there is a definite sense of a message that gives strict demarcations of what is or isn't male or female and what is or isn't suitable for boys and girls. Therefore, if you don't adhere to these (if you want to read girls magazines but you are a boy) then in fact you aren't a boy at all but a girl.

It strikes me as far more useful, liberal, productive even, to have less rigid ideas about what being male or female means. Charlotte being a case in point. It's a fucking spider!

Having read through a number of reviews of the book and extracts (though not the book itself) I am concerned that the book is gets worthy points solely from its subject matter rather than as literature. It is possibly more suited in its writing style to younger children aged 10 or so.
I found this review to be quite interesting and helpful.
But there are many more on GoodReads.

Sadly this book does seem to have quite stereotypical ideas of what being a boy or a girl entails, and reinforces rather than challenges gender stereotypes. Would you have the opportunity to question gender stereotypes in your English lessons? You could ask whether only boys can play male parts or girls female parts? Then contrast this with actors in Shakespearean times. You could ask whether it is right that Kelly who auditioned and won the lead role should then share it with her friend.

You of course will be able to judge it for yourself when you read it, and I am sure you will find ways of teaching it. Perhaps it is better that the children get to discuss the book rather than swallowing its narrative unquestioningly.

That said, it still seems an odd choice for a class reader, and it is disappointing that you as the teacher get no say in the choice. Is that usual in your school?

That's a good point Fairy, re the subject matter rather than literature.

That's sometimes the case. I personally find Swindells texts can grate a bit but there's always something topical and the kids seem to like them so I hide my irritation. Nice bloke, too :)

I won't go into further details about why I have to teach it if you don't mind - it's nothing sinister but specific and I don't want to out myself or more embarrassingly, the school! :)

As for the can you grow up feeling you're in the wrong body, I dunno. I never did. But I've heard convincing testimony from people who strongly believe they did.

Has anyone here questioned that someone can feel that they are in the wrong body?
No one can ever know what someone else feels like.

Which is why a boy can feel that his body doesn't fit, but he cannot know that this is because he feels "like a girl". Because he cannot know what a girl feels like.

I do think that many parents who claim their children are transgender are just homophobic and dreading the possibility that their boy who plays with dolls might grow up to be gay

Really? You genuinely think that people who have homophobic views would be accepting of the trans community?

It strikes me as far more useful, liberal, productive even, to have less rigid ideas about what being male or female means. Charlotte being a case in point. It's a fucking spider!

In a spider's case, being female means killing males of your species unless they present you with a gift of food before mating. At least some species.

If George identifies with that, I'd be rather concerned.

You genuinely think that people who have homophobic views would be accepting of the trans community?

I thought that too, but there was a piece in one of the papers a few weeks back where they quoted various parents (who all had differing views) And of them was something like "I was just grateful they werent gay"

I'm going to try really hard to find the actual piece, because that really shocked me.

Really? You genuinely think that people who have homophobic views would be accepting of the trans community?

Um, I wonder how you didn't know that before, but Iran is a whole country that is accepting of the transgenderism, while being so homophobic they execute lesbians and gays.

In fact, they are so accepting of transgenderism that about half of their women's soccer team is male, and pre-surgery, too. (I suppose the males on the team will have to have surgery sooner or later, but they are accepted as transwomen by Iran. Other countries have made noises about this being unfair, though.)

Here's a link. I misremembered, it is eight members, which in a soccer team is more than half, if I am not mistaken.

nypost.com/2015/10/01/most-of-players-on-irans-womens-team-are-men-official/

There are so many pieces about "trans kids" and trans teenagers/uni students who are the children of conservative Christians (usually in the United States) and who were terrified they might be gay until they realized that they had found the loophole and were just trapped in an opposite sex body instead.

I think increasingly being trans is becoming more socially acceptable than being homosexual, largely due to some very aggressive propaganda.

^ A Mermaids representative saying how the T should be removed from LGBT because it lumps T in with the deviancy of LGBT. I am paraphrasing, but if you watch video from about 1 minute you can see for yourself.

I imagine when today's kids grow up we'll have cats demanding surgery so they can become human, and humans having tail transplants so they can turn themselves into dogs.

the T should be removed from LGBT

Perhaps S should be added to LGBT as straight people are now as wierd as everyone else.

I imagine when today's kids grow up we'll have cats demanding surgery so they can become human, and humans having tail transplants so they can turn themselves into dogs

Do you think trans people undergo surgery lightly? Your comment seems to suggest that?

pseudo

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

That's a disturbing video ItsAll

ego Are you suggesting that people undertaking modifications to bring their bodies in line with their species do so lightly?

Check your trans- privilege! At least trans folk have surgery readily available to them, and are taken seriously by society.

I didn't expect you of all people to be so bigoted against other kind.

Otherkin, not other kind.

Jesus this topic is boring as all hell on here these days.
Its a book. Just like any other book you teach it from the perspective that some people think x, other people think y, its all an opinion. the end. really no need to get in such a tizz over it.

yeah.. womens issues are so boring

I imagine when today's kids grow up we'll have cats demanding surgery so they can become human, and humans having tail transplants so they can turn themselves into dogs.

Cats can't demand anything, they can't speak. Humans who want to transform themselves into animals via surgery already exist.

They just don't have the lobby that transgenderism has.

Misogynists have an interest in destroying women's spaces by opening them up to men.

Homophobic parents have an interest in having their homosexual children turned into what looks like a heterosexual child.

I don't know any group that would profit from trans-species surgery, except cosmetic surgeons, so I don't think it is likely it will ever be as widespread as transgenderism.

Sounds like it's about a boy who likes stereotypical 'girl' things so he feels he must be a girl.

Awful message to give young people at such an impressionable age.

Guess it's time to break out the (new! updated!) Big List of Trans Talking Points again. Thanks all who helped me compile it.

1. Anti-trans arguments run along two lines, the metaphysical and the practical. One of the most common anti-trans arguments is that by acknowledging transwomen as women we are fundamentally redefining the very concept and definition of women, and therefore threatening, inherently, what it means to be a woman. I completely understand this, but I think in practice it really won't happen. Toxic masculinity is so ingrained in our society which is fundamentally predicated on patriarchy, for a man to "self identify" as being female is to do something extremely radical involving a complete rejection of the patriarchy. Within patriarchal society transwomen are seen as "lower" (much, much lower) than biological women, due to rejecting masculinity. We are simply not going to develop a culture where men on masse start identifying as women while still retaining male privilege. It would go against the very foundations of partriarchy. Please recognise that our 21st Western understanding of sex/gender as being two distinct boxes is not universal: many cultures throughout the world and throughout history have believed there to be more than two sexes.

2. There appears to be the belief that transwomen are given special rights and are held in such high esteem by the world/society that normal rules and laws do not apply to them. This is simply not reality. In reality most transwomen live with an extreme level of abuse and discrimination - why would they. The world in which anyone can simply play the 'trans card' and have the world bow down to them simply does not exist.

3. Transwomen suffer high levels of abuse and discrimination. The number one cause of death for transwomen is murder. The majority of transwomen work as prostitutes to pay for their gender reassignment. They put themselves in a position of being at permanent risk of abuse. Ask yourselves: why would anyone do that if not genuinely compelled to? And how much privilege in practical terms do you think these individuals enjoy?

4. Current trans debate is based on a society's obsession with rigid gender norms (which hurt women) and old-fashioned and dangerous beliefs about gender (see the David Peter Reimer case). Obviously a four-year-old who loves pink and dolls is not "trans" but the insane labelling of young children as trans for not conforming to gender stereotypes is not a reflection on actual trans people and it is not anti-trans to point out how insane and abusive it is. It is only through questioning and encouraging debate around gender that we can move past this (which is actually a very old fashioned view of gender -

5. Research shows that transwomen suffer the same level of misogyny after they transition as biological women, even from people who knew them as men. As an intersexed transwoman I know said on the London stage recently, "I truly believe there is a war on women, and before I thought this was a woman's world."

6. Transphobia is often rooted in traditional misogyny. Most of the transphobia in the world comes from men, not from women. Stop doing misogynistic men's work for them, because they have an agenda to pit women against each other. We see their tactics to pit biological women against each other in all kinds of different ways every day, hardly a surprise they're now trying to pit ciswomen against transwomen.

7. There are different categories of trans* people and personally I believe this is problematic. An adult woman who rejects female pronouns in order to identify as genderless due to a rejection of the misogynistic bullshit being a woman in a patriarchy involves, who has no problem with her biological womanhood, is not comparable to someone who has felt since early childhood they were born into the wrong body. We do not yet have the language or the laws to accommodate discussions about this - the only way we'll get there is through reasoned debate

8. There are people who are born intersexed or with various medical conditions meaning their biological sex is not clear-cut, and their needs should not be overlooked in the current trans hysteria. In the past I've raised this point on threads here and been told it was irrelevant - sorry, but it's not irrelevant. Posters have explicitly stated that anyone who ever had a penis even if they do not have a penis now should be barred from female toilets. A statement like that affects intersexed individuals; you can't pretend it doesn't or not think about how their rights are going to be accommodated.

1. On the practical side: one common argument is women being forced to accept doctors who were born male. Well, in an ideal world everyone would be able to choose the medical professional right for them. In practise, the NHS is so underfunded, you're lucky to be able to choose anything about your doctor at all. I've had to have (cis) male gynacologists examine and operate on me simply because there were no female ones available in my area period. If someone has PTSD due to being a rape survivor or similar, that is a recognised disability and they are legally entitled to a certain level of accommodation. I have PTSD due to sexual abuse and my medical team are very accommodating of my triggers. And PTSD triggers are rarely straightforward. A person with PTSD is just as likely to be triggered by "anyone wearing a green sweater" than by "being in the presence of a male." In terms of physical safety: no one becomes a gynacologist purely because they want to see vaginas for sexual kicks. If a sexual predator did choose to become a doctor to get access to vulnerable women, they would just go ahead and do that - as a man. Male doctors have extremely easy access to women already. A cismale doctor would have easier access to female patients than a transwoman doctor would. Socially, culturally, women are far more likely to accept orders from and be silenced by a man than by another woman. Women are more likely to make complaints about female doctors than male. There is absolutely no reason for a male sexual predator to transition (or pretend to transition) in order to gain access to women. The chance you will ever encounter or be forced to be examined by a transwomen doctor is incredibly tiny, and no one can legally compel you to be examined by a doctor you do not feel comfortable with. I fired my last doctor simply because I thought she was too judgemental.

10. The idea that men "need" to become transwomen in order to access female spaces is naive. Men don't need to do a damn thing to access female spaces. For the most part they just barge right in. Why would a man put himself in an extremely vulnerable position, give up all his male privilege and male power, put himself at constant high risk of attack and discrimination, and face the complete rejection of his gender and patriarchal society, just to do something he can already do just fine from his existing position of power and privilege? I understand the argument that permitting transwomen blurs the idea of women being allowed to control our own spaces, but I don't agree this is the case. Transwomen might not be accepted as women but they are certainly not accepted as men by patriarchal society. (On that note: jezebel.com/anti-trans-group-forced-to-apologize-for-using-sexual-a-1793299099) The one exception to this is prison, the one environment where a man is not able to use his male privilege to barge into female spaces. For this reason I support separate wings for trans prisoners, and would only allow transwomen to be in womens prisons if they have already physically transitioned and not at all in the case of convicted rapists.

11. The world is not full of men who live as men and present as men, who clearly look 100% masculine, who use "nah mate I identify as female" in order to gain access to a public toilet so they can rape everyone inside. This fear-mongering and scapegoating and creating bogeymen to a Trumpian level. If a man wanted to get into a ladies loo in order to commit a sex crime, he'd just walk straight in. Anyone using a public toilet to commit any kind of offence is breaking the law and will be subject to arrest and prosection - being trans does not make you immune to this.

12. There is no law or proposed law anywhere making it a crime to refuse to have sex with a transwomen, refuse to be examined by a transwoman, call the police on a transwoman commiting an offence. Lesbians are not being "forced" to have sex with transwomen -- we do not live in a world where women can be ordered to volunteer to have sex with anyone they don't want to have sex with. So a couple of men are whining on the Internet because they feel entitled to sex with women who don't want to sleep with them. Men are constantly whining because they feel entitled to sex. And that's a big problem, certainly, but it's a problem because it's part of rape culture and toxic masculinity. Transwomen (if they are genuine transwomen and not men pretending) who say such things are still enmeshed in the entitlement of toxic masculinity, and need more therapy to learn what being a woman involves. This has somehow been translated into, "we're one step away from lesbians being forced by law to sleep with transwomen!" Well, no: there is no law that can legally compel you to have sex with someone.

13. "TRAs" do not represent the views of all trans people, in fact much of the time the are diametrically opposed to the views held by the average trans person. For example, every single trans person I know (which numbers dozens) keenly supported the women's marches, and everything I've seen and been told suggests that the vast majority of transwomen did support the marches wholeheartedly. Yet a couple of TRAs went to the press complaining and suddenly it's "transpeople think women's marches are transphobic." Most transpeople support separate bathrooms and many are actively fighting for them, yet going by MN and the media you'd think all transwomen are trying to force their way into women's bathrooms. Point is: don't generalise, don't assume all transpeople think the same, and don't believe everything you read in the media.

14. Some TRAs are NOT trans but men exploiting the trans community for their own agenda. If you live as a man, present in a stereotypically male way, want to keep and use your penis and the only trans issue you campaign for is the 'right' to have sex with lesbians, you are not trans. And yes of course this is very worrying and means the proposed legislation could potentially be used to abuse women, but BY MEN. Let's be clear about this. The legislation is bad because it could enable men who are pretending to be trans to hurt women. Not because transwomen are all mentally ill rapists. Men pretending to be trans are not transwomen!

15. It is possible some of this trans-outrage is being faked intentionally. There is are underground groups of MRAs who actively pretend to be women's rights activists on Twitter and plan campaigns in order to "debunk and destabilise feminism." And when I say actively plan, I mean it. You may remember that a few years ago media outlets around the world reported that a feminist organisation were campaigning to ban Father's Day. Well that was a stunt - the "feminist organisation" was a fake, set up by this MRA group (who set up and maintained dozens and dozens of fake Twitter profiles pretending to be women) intentionally to make feminists look crazy and man-hating. I personally strongly suspect that they are secretly behind some of the more extreme "trans activists outraged over blah blah" headlines.

16. Some anti-trans actions actively hurt biological women, for example proposed legislation that would allow forced genital checks. Trans hysteria hurts biological women who do not conform to gender stereotypes by putting them at heightened risk of attack and being accused of being men. (In previous threads some MN posters claimed all women should have to carry "proof of gender" ID cards which would need to be shown to be allowed to use a public bathroom - how does that not hurt and oppress women? If this was law, what would happen if a woman forgot her ID card? Would she be forced to pee or change a tampon by the side of a road, which would put her at risk of attack?)

17. Current trans debate marginalises and oppresses transmen (biological women who have transitioned to or identify as men). Even on MN transmen are almost never mentioned and when they are they are dismissed, mis-gendered and told to use women's loos when they don't want to. Two examples: There are transmen fighting for access to male spaces. One transmale teen took a case against their school to the US Supremere Court. Ask yourselves why we rarely hear about that, but we constantly hear about transwome in women's loos? Second, the "pregnant women" thing (which I personally thought was nuts) was about accommodating transmen who retain the ability to get pregnant. Not transwomen. Actual biological women. Do you feel comfortable forcing a biological woman to identify as "woman" if they do not want to?

18. Some transwomen are abusive or just plain assholes, because they are people, not because they are trans. Would you make a sweeping statement about black people if you had an abusive black ex? I know more people who have been told "if you don't sleep with me you're racist" by non-white men than "if you don't sleep with me you're transphobic" and I wouldn't use that to make a generalisation about black men, and I'm sure no one else would either.

19. If you have strong feelings on this matter, I urge you to go out and meet actual transwomen face to face. Not the "TRAs" - real, ordinary transwomen who have had gender reassignment or are waiting for it, who live as women. I think that's the least you can do if you're campaigning to remove someone's rights, don't you?

If anyone's interested in genuinely discussing the facts pm me - I don't tend to come back to threads because I don't need to see a dozen biscuits from people who didn't even read my post.